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Surley, Gunner, Dr. DeCracker and the MisStake

Discussion in 'Surveying & Geomatics' started by RJ Leaver, Aug 17, 2016.

  1. RJ Leaver

    RJ Leaver Member

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    RJ Leaver submitted a new blog post

    Surley, Gunner, Dr. DeCracker and the MisStake

    [​IMG]

    Continue reading the original blog post
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 5, 2016
  2. FL/GA PLS.

    FL/GA PLS. 6-Year Member

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    Article makes perfect sense, implementing it is another thing.

    First chiropractor that makes sense, they are all quacks as far as I am concerned.
     
  3. Jim in AZ

    Jim in AZ 6-Year Member

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    My Dad went to a chiropractor once a week for years. His job took him out of town once for 2 weeks. He never went back to the chiropractor and his back never bothered him again.
     
  4. Tom Adams

    Tom Adams 4-Year Member

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    I had a dachshund that had a bad back. One morning he woke me up with his yelping. I found him pulling himself with his front legs because he couldn't move his rear legs. We took him in to the vet's office and they put him on an iv and fed him nourishment and pain killers as well as took x-rays. They said they couldn't figure out the problem but wanted to keep him under observation. They were talking about getting an mri and/or getting a cart with wheels so he could pull himself around with his front paws. They kept him for about a week. We told them we wanted to take him to a chiropractor. The Doctor didn't want to let him go. We asked that the x-rays be sent to the chiropractor, and they said they wouldn't send them but he could come look @ them there.

    We finally told the Vet that we wanted the dog back and took him to the chiropractor (a people-chiropractor, btw). We got an adjustment and the dog walked out of the Chiropractor's office with his tail wagging. We had to take him in for a few more follow-up adjustments, but he went on to live another 10 years walking and enjoying his life.

    You have to find a good chiropractor and some of them are quacks , perhaps, but they do have a greater understanding of the skeletal structure than most doctors.

    Sorry, I followed a tangent. Back to the original story; the lesson is very good. What we've been doing doesn't cut it. We cry and scream and change out license to call ourselves "professionals" be have trouble being viewed as more than an Engineer's helper. New tactics should be reviewed.
     
  5. RJ Leaver

    RJ Leaver Member

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    You all are missing the point. This is not about chiropractors. Now there is this debate about whether chiropractors are quacks. If they are quacks, then they are the bad guys, right?

    I consider anybody who wants to be a surveyor or has been an experienced surveyor for years to be one of the good guys. But in comparisons to other professions, I hate to admit it, we are the losing. A recent article in xyHt by Amanda Askren PLS talks about 20-40 people coming together to save the entire land surveying profession. Do you think that is going to happen with their 3 main action points?

    http://bt.e-ditionsbyfry.com//display_article.php?id=2536474&id_issue=321808

    Does that sound like we are winning? Are we winning yet? Or do you like to lose, and do you want to just continue right on losing?

    But in my state, if quacks are bad guys, well in my state they are winning! How did then win? Read the article again, and forget about the chiropractor who is telling you how to win. I am telling you how to win again, because I wrote the article.
     
  6. Monte

    Monte Member

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    How do I go about getting permission to share that blog post?
     
  7. Wendell

    Wendell Administrator Staff Member

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    You can scroll to the bottom of the article and use the share buttons to share it on social media or via email. It will also appear in a future RPLS Today Newsletter that will go out soon, and you can share the newsletter.
     
    RADAR likes this.
  8. dmyhill

    dmyhill 5-Year Member

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    Not to drift into P&R, but hopefully I will confine myself to philosophy:

    The type of people that get into surveying, in the USA, seem to be largely of the "live and let live" variety. They don't like being told what to do, and they don't see telling others how to do it either. (Check and see all the posts on this forum, we might gripe about other's methods, but we aren't much for prescribing once certain "right way",)

    It is part of who we are, typically. Whether on the right or the left politically, our mindset is typically conservative in nature (politics aside).

    We are also opinionated. We have to be in order to do our job. Not all of us are argumentative, but we tend to come to our opinions carefully, and dislike changing them. (Perhaps to do so would question our judgement, which in the end is the bedrock of our professional ability.)

    One advantage to requiring a degree for licensure: perhaps it would change the internals of our mood, our outlook, by requiring a different type of person.

    Also, it would tend to make surveying a choice, rather than something you kind of fall into, which is what about 85% of the people I know did...they needed a job, started surveying, and 10-15 years later...PLS.


    I think that all of the above makes us less willing to game the system, less willing to band together, and less effective when we do.

    Personally, I read that article, and I see comments about being "entitled" to a "piece of the pie", and I am reminded that I teach my kids that they are not entitled. And, I am reminded that I have to pay insurance premiums that include chiropractic care, even though I don't use it, and do not want to. See? The even though it might benefit me, the idea of legislating my necessity, rather than earning it makes me uncomfortable.
     
    RADAR likes this.
  9. RJ Leaver

    RJ Leaver Member

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    In what I experience everyday and with what I read, land surveying is on life support and “needs to be revived.” If we are talking a human body, that means near death. If we are talking about a profession in need of reviving, then that means the profession is near death. So with all due respect, what would be your solutions? Or are you just planning on retiring and removing yourself as far from land surveying as possible? (I have also had those thoughts, so this is with all due respect, but I feel I need to give back.)

    I agree with you, surveyors do not like being told what to do, or how to do it. We are independent, we are opinionated and we want to be our own bosses, and yes conservative. And yes, I agree that land surveying is something most of us fell into because we could not find another decent job.

    I agree more formal education is absolutely necessary. But with a profession on its way out, how do you get schools/colleges to even begin to offer a new degree program? They know we are on our way out.

    I have often contended that we need an institutional psychotherapist to get us all together and explain why some of our attitudes just do not help us as a profession anymore. Mine included.

    We all want the “perceived benefits” of being a land surveyor, and we want all the “joys”, but we all want to do it our own independent, opinionated way. And most often that also results in poverty, unless our spouse has a good paying career.

    I look around at what is happening in the land information arena in my state, and I can think of many new ways that land surveyors can be better part of that process and better serve the public, which is our number 1 responsibility, before serving ourselves. That does not mean we need to continue as paupers in serving the public. We should be able to make a decent living at it, too. That is called fairness, if we are in fact professionals.

    That is what I meant by being “entitled to a fair share of the piece of pie.” Maybe a bad choice of words. But those many new ways of involving land surveyors will not happen with more PR, more education of the public, new national logos, and more of everything else that has been tried by state societies for the last 40 years. And some others (not land surveyors) will never be found advocating for those many new things that we as land surveyors should and could be doing, because we are suppose to know what we are about. (And the others do not.)

    You will never find county boards, engineers, lawyers or any other profession advocating for new ways to involve land surveyors in serving the public in a far better way. It needs to come from the land surveyors! Do we have what it takes?

    I have also told my children that they are not entitled. But how many land surveyors’ adult children have chosen to follow what you or I have done? How many 2nd generation families of surveyors are among our ranks? Which state society of land surveyors in this country can even boast their rate of 2nd generation families of surveyors is even 5%? Another indication we are on our way out.

    I simply think you and I, and all land surveyors are better than what they have thrown at us, which I have described as leftovers, pie crusts and bread crumbs. And if that means legislation that accomplishes that, keeping in mind the public’s interests must be served first, then I am strongly in favor of pursuing exactly that.

    And I refuse to accept the diagnosis that we are on life support and in need of reviving. Although that is exactly what I believe, I cannot and will not accept it.

    You and I and all land surveyors are far better than that, and that does not mean we are entitled. It just means we should know far better than every other non surveyor what we all should and could be about.

    I conclude with the surveyor’s poem from Ralph Riggs.
    Be sure to read to the end.

    A Surveyor’s Poem

    Thought I would send this poem that my son wrote and if it is something that you feel would be of interest to your readers, feel free to use it. It was published in our state publication The Missouri Surveyor. My son patterned it after the famous “So God Made a Farmer” poem by Paul Harvey. Ralph L. Riggs, PLS, CFedS, West Plains, MO

    So God Made a Surveyor
    and on the tenth day
    God looked down on his creation
    called paradise
    He said I need somebody to measure
    the land honestly
    So God made a surveyor

    God said I need someone who will
    wake up before dawn
    drive three hours to the boondocks
    work all day
    drive three hours back home
    put on some nice clothes
    go to church
    stay and talk to friends and family
    til 9:30
    go home
    help his children with their schoolwork
    til eleven
    go to bed
    get up the next day and do the same
    thing again
    So God made a surveyor

    God said I need somebody to
    fight gnats
    swat flies and mosquitoes
    trek through swamps and steep hills
    all the while watching for fire ants,
    wasps and bees
    also trying not to find copperheads,
    cottonmouths and alligators
    So God made a surveyor
    God said I need somebody who can
    hold a family together
    with simple kindness and words of
    wisdom from experience
    who will show his children manners
    and good conduct
    yet will let them know who is in charge
    of the house
    So God made a surveyor

    God said I need somebody who can
    settle differences
    between two landowners
    with justice and fairness
    God said I need somebody who won’t
    cut corners
    go off line
    or ignore a landowner’s wishes
    God said I need somebody who will
    measure straight
    respect the law and the surveyors who
    came before him
    and when the time comes
    defend what he knows is right
    So God made a surveyor

    God said I need somebody who will smile
    pull out his handkerchief
    wipe his eyes to hide his tears
    when his sons say
    they don’t want to spend their lives
    doing what dad did

    So God made a surveyor

    —Regan Riggs
     
    dmyhill likes this.
  10. dmyhill

    dmyhill 5-Year Member

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    I don't necessarily disagree with you, I do think that forming an organization like you describe would be a monumental undertaking considering the situation. Perhaps not impossible, but monumental.

    My solution, I do not have a single fix-all. Of all the things we used to need a surveyor for, many of them no longer require experts. We need to come to terms with that. Many of the other things you describe would be fixed by simply having fewer PLS's running around. The supply is obviously too high in some areas (you can tell by the average salary).
     
  11. dmyhill

    dmyhill 5-Year Member

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    People will always need their boundaries surveyed. This is a bedrock of our very society and economy. Will it be us (surveyors) doing it? Probably.

    You would think that a Torrens system, where people could walk out with their cell phones to a certain point would be just the thing. Funny thing is, in WA, the Torrens system that was created never got going, and most people opted out, and those in it get out as soon as they can. And, nothing in law will be able force people to decide the occupation limits between neighbors with a surveyor. It has to be a value choice on their behalf. Regulations don't make the chiropractor rich, you getting your bones cracked does.

    My point there is that the market will exist, but not perhaps at the current size. Tech continues to shrink how many PLS's and crew we need, but reality says that the peculiar job we do will not be reduced to zero.

    My best solution is to not create new PLS's. Do not encourage your kids to go into the field. We have too many already. But, some day in 30 years, that may not be the case.

    It is interesting to note, however, that we also have too many attorneys (really, we do). Schools still churn them out. But, good attorneys make lots of money, and that is the draw. For every successful attorney, there are 100 starving ones, but they still continue dreaming.
     
  12. dmyhill

    dmyhill 5-Year Member

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    BTW, I don't know if education is needed for what we currently do, and that is not just the symptom, but the core issue here. Ideally, our profession would diverge, I believe. Into expert geomatics, expert metrology, and expert boundary. Kind of like an eye doctor is a real doctor, and knows about your whole body, but is specialized. We can already think of areas that each could carve out as their niche, and how the public could benefit.

    I dream of a day when a boundary specialist-PLS in WA can go out, find a boundary issue, and actually fix the problem, without saying, "call your lawyer". Can that happen without legislative changes? No. Would it happen without intense lobbying? No. So, I agree with you that we should be interacting to improve the situation, and it will improve our opportunities.
     
  13. RJ Leaver

    RJ Leaver Member

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    I think you and I are on the same page on this one, lawyers should not need to be called when there are boundary problems, as surveyors or their clients do now. Surveyors should have expertise, training and education on how to solve 99% of what we are not solving now. In my state the surveyor is given great latitude in replatting and solving problems. It is hard working and getting paid by a single client when the problem is with your client and multiple neighbors of your client.

    This is why I am such an advocate for replatting. It is a great process and part and parcel of a new future for land surveyors. Having done replatting extensively, I can say it works great, if the surveyor and his team in the field and office know how to deal with the public. What is the replatting rate of parcels in my state for the last 15 years ? 0.007%

    If you have never done replatting as a surveyor, you are really missing out. It takes everything Jeff Lucas has criticized about land surveyors and effectively silences his arguments.
     
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  14. Jp7191

    Jp7191 6-Year Member

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    Thanks! Another great article! Jp
     
  15. RJ Leaver

    RJ Leaver Member

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    I have been researching Torrens, obviously something that I do not have in my state.

    So why does it not work? What specifically allows landowners to opt out? I would hope that you, Wendell Harness, and Gavin Shrock will weigh in on this matter. I think you all you should have some knowledge of Torrens in WA State, but more importantly why it does not work.

    In the very limited research that I have done, it is simple. Lawyers do not like it because it will diminish their work. I'm already starting to like this concept.

    From Wikipedia,

    “Land ownership is transferred through registration of title instead of using deeds.”

    “He (Torrens) oversaw the introduction of the system in the face of often-vicious attack from his opponents, many of whom were lawyers, who feared loss of work in conveyancing because of the introduction of a simple scheme. The Torrens system was also a marked departure from the common law of real property and its further development has been characterized by the reluctance of common-law judges to accept it.”

    So it’s simple, and deeds are gone. Which surveyor would not be in favor of this? I think recorded, text-based deeds today in this day and age of modern technology and everything graphics is absolute INefficiency at its greatest. The only thing text-based deeds provide for is the requirement not to have a surveyor’s map or plat. And if the deed is based upon a survey, the lawyer quickly discards the modern graphic, which is the surveyor’s map or plat.

    If this is something we need to revisit with our friends, the lawyers, count me in!

    (I also have a special regard for the Australians, of which Torrens was one. Some of the absolute best land surveying and mapping software has been developed in Australia, and I use it every day.)
     
  16. dmyhill

    dmyhill 5-Year Member

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    Here is a link that tries to describe the advantages and disadvantages. I think the biggest hurdle is that it costs more to register land, and involuntary transfers are more complex. I am not sure how Torrens interacts with the existing laws regarding adverse possession, acquiesce, etc.

    Basically, it adds a level of complexity to any land transfer, I believe. (And it is seems rational to surveyors, so it must be a bad idea.)

    http://www.americanbar.org/content/...ractice_area_e_newsletter_home/torrenact.html
     

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