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Wrong Station Setup .  

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Enri_F
(@enri-f)
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August 9, 2018 10:47 am  

Hi there,

I am using a Trimble s5 and I was wondering if is it possible to adjust a wrong instrument setup after that every observetion has been made, manipulate everything to get the right coordinates value , say after you got a proper setup of the instrument and computing the BS/FS day next for example. If so, can it be done while on site ?

Supposed it is not possible while on site, is that possible in processing ? Subject of survey is a river.

Funny enough, the error on my back sight was deltaH 5 mm.

For wrong setup I mean not centering the neil on peg after leveling the instrument.

This topic was modified 2 months  ago 2 times by Enri_F

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squowse
(@squowse)
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August 9, 2018 3:48 pm  

I believe if you change the statuon or backsight coords all the obsevauons from the station change as well. 


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Norman Oklahoma
(@norman-oklahoma)
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August 9, 2018 4:00 pm  

It can certainly be done. You have collected raw data and that data can be recomputed. I use StarNet everyday to do such a thing.  With a laptop, I can do it onsite.  It could be done with a pencil, trig book, and slide rule. So, yeah. All that. 

I believe that you are actually asking is whether updating the station setup coordinates in the data collector will cause the raw data attached to that  station to be recomputed  to match.  I don't know the answer to that. But I'm interested to hear about the results when you try it.   

"Convention is like the shell to the chick, a protection till he is strong enough to break it through." Learned Hand


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Paul in PA
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August 9, 2018 6:45 pm  

If you change it wrong in the filed it is almost impossible to go back. If you change it without first explaining it to your boss you could be committing fraud.

Wrong instrument setups can come in many forms, wrong IH or RH, easy to change. Wrong occupation and/or backsight number, harder to change. Better to copy your file and work in he copy for the rest of the day. Depending on your software, points can be translated and rotated in the filed, best done in the copy file. The toughest ones to change in the filed are when your control is in one file and your shots are in another file.

Better to do any changes in the office where you can think and plan it out before doing it. again you work in a copied file.

Paul in PA


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BK9196
(@bk9196)
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August 9, 2018 6:57 pm  

I wont profess to be an expert as on this particular board, my 15 years experience is pretty small here. That being said, assuming you know precisely what went wrong, I can only think of a few occasions it cant be fixed in the office.

The fact that the question was raised makes me want to stress on the other advice you received, discuss the issue with the party responsible for your work. Fix or resurvey is their call. 

This post was modified 2 months  ago by BK9196

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Peter Ehlert
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August 9, 2018 7:38 pm  

In the field? maybe, it depends on your software... high chance of loosing it all unless you make a backup of all your data and work on a Copy.

I agree with @norman-oklahoma

Star*Net is the tool.

loosen up the centering error setting to a reasonable (your best guess) and see how it closes. 
Open traverse? then what Accuracy do you need. Your Bad setup could not be more than a tenth I think

Let's hear how it comes out

This post was modified 2 months  ago by Peter Ehlert

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Jim Jacaruso, PLS
(@bushaxe)
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August 10, 2018 2:07 am  

Agree with making the fix in the office.  I recently had an I-man use completely wrong point numbers for Occupied Point and Backsight Point. He even ran a backsight check three times during a radial topo from that setup but never looked at the residuals to see he had a bad setup. Prior to that he was nearly flawless as an I-man. Completely through me for a loop when I looked at the data. Bottom line, I made a copy and fixed it all in the office without a return trip and without losing the original raw data file. 

Its one thing not to know. Its another not to know you don't know.


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Jim Jacaruso, PLS
(@bushaxe)
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August 10, 2018 2:07 am  

Agree with making the fix in the office.  I recently had an I-man use completely wrong point numbers for Occupied Point and Backsight Point. He even ran a backsight check three times during a radial topo from that setup but never looked at the residuals to see he had a bad setup. Prior to that he was nearly flawless as an I-man. Completely through me for a loop when I looked at the data. Bottom line, I made a copy and fixed it all in the office without a return trip and without losing the original raw data file. 

Its one thing not to know. Its another not to know you don't know.


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JPH
 JPH
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August 10, 2018 5:34 am  

I agree with the others here.  I can't think of a reason to do it in the field in the DC.  Maybe there's something I'm not thinking about, but I'd just make an obvious note in the fieldbook that a correction needs to be made, and continue with the traverse.


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Mark Mayer
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August 10, 2018 6:15 am  
.... Prior to that he was nearly flawless as an I-man. ....

Probably you didn't mean it this way, but you make it sound like the man is now no good because of one mistake. That's a little severe.

It's an easy and not so uncommon thing to have happen. For  this reason I run  everything that comes back from the field through StarNet. I can run my finger down the raw data listing and get a good feel for how the day went. I can see that the control used is the latest. I can check the check shots for myself. If the data is good it takes 5 minutes. If not, whatever time I spend fixing it (if that's possible and it almost always is) is worth it. 

Quality Assurance is not so much about eliminating mistakes but rather it is about setting up processes to minimize them, knowing they are there, detecting them when they occur, and fixing them before they become a problem.  Quality Checking, BTW, is about monitoring your QA procedures - it's not bleeding on the final map with red pen. 

EDUCATION, n. That which discloses to the wise and disguises from the foolish their lack of understanding.

EXPERIENCE, n. The wisdom that enables us to recognize as an undesirable old acquaintance the folly that we have already embraced.


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flyin solo
(@flyin-solo)
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August 10, 2018 6:52 am  

in my opinion this very circumstance is one of the most basic and clear cut reasons i decided long ago to always deal with raw data files instead of ascii coordinates.

also happens to be one of the simplest fixes in a raw file if, like you do, you know what the exact procedural error was.

guessing your raw file format would be .fbk, in which case you'd go into the raw file and change something that looks like this:

STN 1 5.35

BS 2 0.00000

PRISM 5.10

to this:

STN 2 5.35

BS 1 0.00000

PRISM 5.10

so long as the coordinates for your control points are good, it's that simple.

field data file management is something i am a bit... fastidious about.  so, for instance- i would take your "bad" file, download it and keep it as is.  (i save each day's work in a dated folder, and the raw file is dated for each day).  then i "save as" each day's file as the editable file with the tag "edited" on the end of the file name.  that is where fixes are made, the extra ephemera present in all raw files gets cleaned out, linework can be adjusted, yadda yadda.  that file is what goes into cad.  a good, orderly system like this can eliminate all kinds of confusion, lost data, paper waste.  

i still remember the first time i was tasked with repairing a bad raw file, and thinking it looked like mandarin to me.  fifteen or so years later, and processing raw files has become so fundamental to my process i can't imagine even feeling like i have a good grip on a job without doing it.  even if it's a day's worth of rtk shots where a raw file is essentially just an inefficient ascii file, i still process the raw file every time.

This post was modified 2 months  ago by flyin solo

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Jim Jacaruso, PLS
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August 10, 2018 4:29 pm  

You’re right Mark, I didn’t mean it that way at all. What I meant was that this guy making a mistake is so rare that it was quite a surprise and the last thing I expected. Part of our field QA procedures requires shooting the backsight and noting the residules before taking the first shot, again every few minutes during a radial topo, and as the very last shot of the setup. Because those observations were in the raw file I was able to diagnose and fix the problem quickly. He just had a bad day in a very tough environment. Everyone has been there. I don’t harbor any ill feelings toward him. He’s one of the best people that has ever worked for me. The example was given to show how even the best I-man can make a mistake and this particular fix can and should be fixed in the office.

 

Its one thing not to know. Its another not to know you don't know.


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Norman Oklahoma
(@norman-oklahoma)
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August 10, 2018 5:01 pm  
Posted by: Jim Jacaruso, PLS

You’re right Mark, I didn’t mean it that way at all. What I meant was that this guy making a mistake is so rare that it was quite a surprise and the last thing I expected. Part of our field QA procedures requires shooting the backsight and noting the residules before taking the first shot, again every few minutes during a radial topo, and as the very last shot of the setup. Because those observations were in the raw file I was able to diagnose and fix the problem quickly. He just had a bad day in a very tough environment. Everyone has been there. I don’t harbor any ill feelings toward him. He’s one of the best people that has ever worked for me. The example was given to show how even the best I-man can make a mistake and this particular fix can and should be fixed in the office.

 

Understood. Things happen.  

"Convention is like the shell to the chick, a protection till he is strong enough to break it through." Learned Hand


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Enri_F
(@enri-f)
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August 21, 2018 9:20 am  

Thanks guys lovely reading your comets and advises really.

I did take another bs and fs and  that is it. As far as I understood , they will be able to adjust everything in office. 

 


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