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Bill93
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January 9, 2019 7:11 am  

It's been a while since I've seen this discussed.

Suppose a client asks you to cut out a few acres from a larger parcel, in an approximate rectangle, "where it is fenced. " Assume the jurisdiction requires a plat with measurements to tagged monuments.

How do you monument/tag it and what point on a fence do you measure to, the center of the corner post, the tangent point of a wire, the PI of the wires, or what?

Next question: how much departure from a straight line do you allow before adding points of inflection to the plat?


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Paul in PA
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January 9, 2019 7:42 am  

The Good Face. Typically a fence has a good side, (chain link side or board side) with posts all on the other side. Were I surveying existing lots I might measure to the side nearest the lot line, to make it clear who owns the fence. It is necessary to determine the owner's intent, is the fence to be a part of the new or remainder parcel and I would strike a straight line as much as possible to do that. If the owner intends the exact fence to be the new boundary line I would explain the additional cost to do just that.

One might assume "where it is fenced"  means the entirety of the fenced in area is to be on the new lot but not necessarily the entirety of the new lot and would be less concerned if the good side was not regular.

I would set permanent monuments and possibly tie to fence corner posts but not rely on them.

Paul in PA

This post was modified 2 weeks ago by Paul in PA

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Bill C
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January 9, 2019 8:12 am  

@bill93 you probably already know this, but Mulford's "Boundaries and Landmarks" discussed some of these details, at least as far as conventions and traditions went in the eastern US in 1912.


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Norman Oklahoma
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January 9, 2019 8:41 am  

I'm going to fake it a little to make sure my corner rods don't fall inside a fence post or even on the concrete base, if there is one. Mulford notwithstanding, It's going to be a situation by situation call.

"Convention is like the shell to the chick, a protection till he is strong enough to break it through." Learned Hand


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Dave Karoly
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January 9, 2019 8:48 am  

A fence has a functional precision of 6 inches at best.

Like Norman says, set the rod as close as you can then run the boundary to it.

I followed a Survey, there were rod/cap and fence corner posts.  The fence corner  posts fit the bearings and distances very close, the rods were driven some distance away (a foot plus).  I didn't like that solution very much.  The map said nothing about it, just set rod/cap with an arrow to the corner point.  Actually I've seen this a couple of times.  At least say "set rod/cap S 45°15' E 1.25' from corner which is occupied by a fence post."

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? -1 Corinthians 15:55


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aliquot
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January 9, 2019 9:05 am  

I would try to ensure the fence is all on one side of the line, and create a boundary as straight as possible that stays within an agreed distance of the fence, unless your clients insist they want to share it. If they insist on sharing it, I would measure to the center of the the corner post, and bury RMs (one on each side) at every corner.

For the minor deflections I would again shoot the center of the post. Hopefully your regulations will allow you to just call out the post, or at least accept a post with a  washer with your number.

The goal is to ensure your client understands and agrees with the uncertainty of the fence location, and the fact that the fence position is not stable over a long time  period. Of course the closer to the actual fence the boundary is the more expensive it will be. 


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Brian Allen
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January 9, 2019 9:30 am  

It depends on what the client wants, and the specific circumstance(s).


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linebender
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January 9, 2019 9:37 am  

Next question: how much departure from a straight line do you allow before adding points of inflection to the plat of a government line that is supposed to be straight? 

The plaintiff owned the W 1/2 before and after the judge ruled. 

Sec15


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Daniel Ralph
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January 9, 2019 9:58 am  

This situation doesn't happen much where I work, and when I does, I try to explain why that is not such a good idea for the client moving forward. However failing that, I ask the client to set stakes where they expect the corners to be and I will measure to them and perpetuate that with a more permanent point and the words to memorialize it. We discuss ownership and maintenance responsibilities in advance. 

It saddens me when I see fences located to the nearest 0.01' on a survey. I measure to the center of the post and qualify that to be within 0.1' of its relative position. 

Dan Moehrke, PLS


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Dave Karoly
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January 9, 2019 10:09 am  

If a physical boundary legally establishes a straight section line then the line is straight in a legal sense although not in a measured sense.

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? -1 Corinthians 15:55


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jim.cox
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January 9, 2019 12:12 pm  

As usual, it depends.

But in absence of any other indication...

Where the rails meet the posts.

That way half the fence falls either side of the boundary.

=mjc=
.


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Seb
 Seb
(@seb)
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January 9, 2019 2:02 pm  

Urban: centre of fence rail for side and rear, road side face for front.

Rural: along the line of the wire.

 

 


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holy cow
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January 9, 2019 5:56 pm  

Not in the post and rarely in the concrete of an existing fence, as a rule.  In farm country when a tract is getting separated I prefer to put the entire fence on the side most in need of maintaining the fence.  Detest chainlink fences with a 12-18 inch radius of concrete almost as much as a hedge corner post about two feet in diameter with concrete reaching out another two feet or more in all directions.  Have set bars smack in the center of the top of those big dudes.  They may not be in the ground but they are well "grounded" and not prone to being pulled out when you beat them in as much as physically possible.


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Skeeter1996
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January 9, 2019 6:52 pm  

My rule is: If the fence lines on the clients side of the property line it's his fence.

If it lies on the neighbor's side of the property line it's his fence.

If it lies on the property line it's "our" fence.

Of course I measure to the centerline of the fence to see where it lies in relationship to the property line.


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A Harris
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January 9, 2019 9:13 pm  

The wire.

Longer lines could be a foot variance

Monument at intersection of wire. Some clients what to own their fence and I set tpost on actual boundary and let them decide on placement of fence.

It has been a custom that adjoining ranches share the fence cost of materials and building of.

City folks want to own what they build and be just far away to not want neighbors from tying on to their posts.

A fence is usually built in a place of convience after boundaries are established, so fences are mere fences.

When particions are made along fences I use the middle of posts and set monuments at post alignment intersections and many times the fence corner becomes the monument and set witness as available.

RPLS NE Texas
d[-_-]b


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