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Andy Nold
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December 6, 2018 10:50 am  
Posted by: aliquot
 
Your compromise description is adequate (although I think a bearings statement should be added). I was referring to the title company example, which was not. You are right though, no reason to be stubborn when a compromise can be worked out that makes all parties happy.
You are right on that one. I usually put the metadata for the bearings, distances and coordinates in the second paragraph and just noticed this morning that I had forgot to put that. But, it was on page 1 as mentioned previously.

 

“A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man!” - Jebediah Springfield


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aliquot
(@aliquot)
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December 6, 2018 10:53 am  

If you can be assured that the plat will stay with the legal, then maybe what the title company wants could work by just adding a reference to the survey.

Yes, standards in Oklahoma are very low compared to many states.


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paden cash
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December 6, 2018 10:55 am  
Posted by: Andy Nold

...I don't know if my plat will be filed with the description or not, but it is page 1 of 2 and the legal is page 2.

Don't count on it getting recorded.  Do yourself a favor and record it yourself. Ten bucks per page well spent here in Cleveland County.  Most counties allow the recordation of a survey.  Those that don't usually allow a miscellaneous document.  Either way it should get recorded in the proper STR.

...and standard format for legal descriptions...whose?  I didn't get the memo either.

 

This post was modified 3 days ago by paden cash

“I won't take my religion from any man who never works except with his mouth."
- Carl Sandburg


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thebionicman
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December 6, 2018 1:20 pm  

Title companies often want a product that meets thier needs with nothing else added. Most relent once I explain that I must meet the laws, rules and standard of care. The others hire somebody else.

CFedS, PLS ID-OR-WA-UT-NV


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MightyMoe
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December 6, 2018 2:34 pm  

Title companies will strip out the drawing, even when they are referenced in the description. 

They seem to think the drawings cause trouble or something.

They are way out of line having you change that description...…..the second one works, but I would have referenced he section line at the SW parcel corner. When you reference witness corners along a line,,,,,that really gets them going. 

 


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Bill93
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December 6, 2018 3:39 pm  

Keep fighting it.  Otherwise surveyors will be like doctors are now, constrained by the insurance companies on how they can practice medicine.


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Javad GNSS

Gene Kooper
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December 6, 2018 3:50 pm  
Posted by: MightyMoe

Title companies ....

When you reference witness corners along a line,,,,,that really gets them going. 

 

In my experience, mineral surveys "really get them going," too, also. 


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True Corner
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December 6, 2018 6:57 pm  

I write descriptions like that all the time (Oklahoma style).  I don't get too specific (KISS), afterall bearing and distance is evidence to the corner, it's not the corner.  The problem may be that Texas is a metes and bounds state with traditions of natural monuments while Oklahoma is a PLSS state with section lines ("I don't care how they do it in Texas...you're not in Texas anymore.")


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aliquot
(@aliquot)
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December 7, 2018 8:12 am  
Posted by: True Corner

I write descriptions like that all the time (Oklahoma style).  I don't get too specific (KISS), afterall bearing and distance is evidence to the corner, it's not the corner.  The problem may be that Texas is a metes and bounds state with traditions of natural monuments while Oklahoma is a PLSS state with section lines ("I don't care how they do it in Texas...you're not in Texas anymore.")

Sure, but not telling the retracing surveyor what the corner actually is exponentially increases the uncertainty, and the probability of two retracing surveyors coming to different conclusions goes through the roof.


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LRDay
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December 7, 2018 12:31 pm  

They are asking for the very poor classic "metes WITHOUT bounds" description.  These fit nicely into the paper records derived from an assumed perfect PLSS. No need to survey much, it's just a bit of simple geometry. Anybody can do it. Why should a buyer paying half a million get more than a $10 description?

 

Where I work tying to a section corner in a description doesn't always tie to any perpetuated monument or existing physical marker. They have been obliterated or maybe lost, usually replaced in a new and improved location by some hack that couldn't look or didn't know how to. But why describe what you used as the physical section monument or the parcel corners, you got the math to work from? The math is one step up from coordinates. Don't waste paper, ink or bytes with these people that belong to a tradition that started out ignorant to proper ways and now culturally are tied to stupidity.

 

As you might determine this is one of the things I hate the most! I've had lots of complaining back from title companies, had them rewrite or totally hack some of my “verbose” descriptions. In Utah we are proposing for a state law that anybody who writes a description must sign it for inclusion in the record, take responsibility. Might help some I hope, but will we be able to get it passed by the legislature?

This post was modified 2 days ago 2 times by LRDay

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aliquot
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December 7, 2018 1:31 pm  

Unless land surveyors have some good friends in the Utah legislature I dont think it will be easy, but there are other ways.

In Alaska the  writting of  land descriptions is included in the statutory definition of the practice of land surveying, so a an unlicensed title company employee would be practicing without a lisence. 


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warren ward PLS CO OK
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December 8, 2018 8:33 am  

I am not particularly good at educating title companies or lawyers. Ironically, case law has established that a property line is something that exists on the ground, not on a piece of paper. The new properties you describe are only pieces of paper with numbers on it, until you set your monuments, and THEN you have a piece of property. Case law understands fully that the science of measuring numbers lead to infinite positions on the ground, and pincushions. therefore, you are tasked with describing the lines on the ground, and the only way to insure that those lines are perpetuated in the future is to set monuments and describe those in the LEGAL DESCRIPTION. 

I would prefer to send my legal as you've written, utilizing the LEGAL task of describing the property lines as opposed to the TECHNICAL task of describing numbers in english words on a piece of paper. In the past, when being told by lay people to stamp my legals, assuming the liability, in the manner that THEY prescribe, I will do my best to at least attache my plat showing where I set my pins. 

In one fairly recent case - I sent the legals to the lawyer as written by me (with monuments and an attached plat), and said: Here you go - I've done my job and delivered my work according to the standards that regulate my license. YOU can do whatever you want with these. Just don't put my name on them. (this risky tactic worked!, I got paid)

 

ww CO & OK PLS

Have a nice day! Or, may your monument prevail over some guy's touchscreen.


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PPI Curated Bundles -- Everything you need to pass

Just A. Surveyor
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December 8, 2018 2:49 pm  

I cannot imagine putting state plane coordinates and other associated metadata on a deed. So long as it is able to be placed on the ground and meets the requirements for a proper description then do as the title company asks. Maybe record your survey and make reference to the survey for the more detailed and verbose descriptions. I would refrain from making a set of coordinates part of the deed. I am fine with it being on a plat as a point of reference but a deed is conferring title and it would seem you would give pedigree to a set of coordinates as opposed to the evidence on the ground.

This post was modified 21 hours ago by Just A. Surveyor

Steven Provenson
My Stripper Name is; Just A. Surveyor
Excuse me while I whip this out!


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Dave Karoly
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December 8, 2018 10:31 pm  

I sort of agree with the title company here except to say monuments set should be called for in the legal (this is a problem in old circa 1900 legal descriptions here...missing calls for intended monuments).

The function of the legal description is to identify the subject matter of the grant. It is not the best place to record a boundary survey, that is outside its "wheelhouse."

While we are on the subject of hard work, I just wanted to tell you that I am a man who likes hard work.
I was born working and I worked my way up by hard work.
I ain't ever got no where, but I got there by hard work.
Work of the hardest kind.
I been down and I been out
I been disgusted I been busted and I couldn't be trusted.
-Talking Hard Work, Woody Guthrie


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Duane Frymire
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December 9, 2018 4:37 am  

Not an Okey thing, it's a R.O.W. thing.  They don't want the monuments or coordinates to be confused as controlling elements. In their suggested description, there are no possibility of conflict in the future.  In case of a future dispute over the location of the section lines/title lines, there can be no argument that the description stops at some monument or coordinate.

Working on one right now where the R.O.W. misses the PL by about 7 feet.  But the monuments set after the fact do not control, nor does the coordinate, and neither are mentioned in the description just in case this happens.  Unfortunately, the utility company used the DOT coordinate in their subsequent description of an easement to relocate the poles, which could raise questions about their easement location, but I'm treating it as I do the R.O.W. description.  Still, I wish that coordinate call was not in there as it is the most definite and easily located part of the description, which normally would have to be controlling. Should not be two clear as day intentions, that might in the future come into conflict, expressed in one deed. 

On the other hand, it sounds like in your case a complete and thorough survey of the entire parent tract was done, which is not like a typical route survey that doesn't necessarily find the true sidelines of all the parcels it travels through.  But title company is probably just following "standard" right of way description practice.


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