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Andy Nold
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December 5, 2018 2:03 pm  

I've done a few miles of right-of-way in Oklahoma this year and a few plats for terminals. Sent in my CCRs, getting comfortable with the work. Today the title company bounced my metes and bounds description for one of the terminals and sent me an example with a request to rewrite. As we have discussed, Texas metes and bounds can tend to be verbose since we are not a recording state and the goal is to get as much information into the recorded deed. I am the original surveyor for this tract that we are cutting out. It seems downright irresponsible to me not to put in the description of the monuments set. The barebones title company description seems lacking to me. Opinions welcome.

Mine:

ok legal 1

Their example:

ok legal 2

 

Also, apparently another entity that still relies on the facsimile machine. I wonder if it has been upgraded from steam powered?

This topic was modified 2 weeks ago by Andy Nold

“A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man!” - Jebediah Springfield


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Nate The Surveyor
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December 5, 2018 2:36 pm  

I've finally capitulated around here. Not barebones, but kinda streamlined. 

Don't slow down anything. "Time is money, and money is what we are here for". Seems to guide...

Surveying is more than a Job----it is a passion to provide a foundation for future generation, that is beyond reproach.

Nate


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Bill93
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December 5, 2018 2:44 pm  

Who has the professional license to judge what is sufficient?


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paden cash
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December 5, 2018 3:03 pm  

Welcome to Oklahoma.

When it comes to title companies around here I've noticed the lower the intelligence of the employee, the higher up they are in their internal food chain.

I see plenty of descriptions written by Okie surveyors with calls to monuments and reserve the right to same in a lot of instances.  And I see more and more of them as time goes by.  I think it's a good thing.  I would probably tell the title company they're free to hack it up (like they always do) any way they see fit...just make sure they leave off your name from their quicky-edit.

 But I am top of my 'food chain' around here and can be a butt anytime I feel like it.  I couldn't do that when I was punchin' a clock for someone else.

I'd probably check with the guy that writes the checks and see if you can afford to stand by your professional work...

“Owning a great golf course gives you great power."
- 45th. President of the United States


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Andy Nold
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December 5, 2018 3:59 pm  

Well, I compromised. Hopefully she'll be happy.

ok legal 3

“A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man!” - Jebediah Springfield


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Norman Oklahoma
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December 5, 2018 4:37 pm  

I see nothing particularly wrong with your original legal. Moreover, I'm not sure what it is about their example that they want you to take notice of.  Hmmm. Could be the area call out. By omitting the words "more or less" after the area recital you make the area controlling. But then you call out several monuments as controlling.  Could be a conflict there.

One thing I noticed about legals in Oklahoma is that reference to the particular meridian, Indian or Cimmaron, is often omitted. Which is fine, I suppose. If you know the County there can be only one meridian being referred to. 

A comment - you make reference to a PK nail. Which is fine if the object is indeed a PK and not a Mag.  I regard the distinction as significant because, among other reasons, it is indicative of the age of the monument. Most PKs are 15 years old or more, no Mag can be much older than that.

"Convention is like the shell to the chick, a protection till he is strong enough to break it through." Learned Hand


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aliquot
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December 5, 2018 5:23 pm  

You are the licences surveyor. You should not allow an unlicensed title company employrr tell you how to write you land descriptions. 

All the information they are asking you to leave out is critical to locating the boundary for as long as it exists. If you can't record a survey it needs to be in the land description.

This reminds me of the old Alaska saying, "happiness is a Texan going home with an Okie under each arm."

This post was modified 2 weeks ago by aliquot

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holy cow
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December 5, 2018 9:05 pm  

Normal description.  Have read thousands like that.


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A Harris
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December 6, 2018 1:39 am  

It relates to writing a DOT property description as compared to writing normal beginning at some monument that is of record and progrssing to describe everything as close as can be related in words as to what the math is and describing what is along and crossing the boundary and a detailed wording of monument, references and withness and adjoinging owners, lot numbers and all that "jazz".

Frustrating and being 180° from is proper and headed for what the Client tells us to say.

0.02

RPLS NE Texas
d[-_-]b


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Andy Nold
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December 6, 2018 8:37 am  
Posted by: aliquot

You are the licences surveyor. You should not allow an unlicensed title company employrr tell you how to write you land descriptions. 

That's not the reality in this situation. The revised description is adequate to identify the parcel on the ground and makes the title company happy, which makes the multi-million dollar client happy, which makes the boss happy. If they were asking me to do something that I knew to be wrong, I would certainly stand my ground.

 

“A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man!” - Jebediah Springfield


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paden cash
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December 6, 2018 9:42 am  
Posted by: Andy Nold

.... The revised description is adequate to identify the parcel on the ground and makes the title company happy, which makes the multi-million dollar client happy, which makes the boss happy. If they were asking me to do something that I knew to be wrong, I would certainly stand my ground.

The hyperbole is mine.  And that is an important point.

In Oklahoma the Minimum Standards land surveyors adhere to require the body (excluding the preamble) of a newly created metes & bounds parcel to include the name and date of the preparing surveyor.  Title companies (and others) bitch and moan and "just want the description" without any frills. 

In such a case I will not remove that info from my survey description and provide them a copy of the State Statutes that require this info.  I'm more than happy to provide them a Word doc they can gleefully hack up 'til their eyeballs fall out...but I won't edit that info from my original document.

I guess the intent of the statute was to give a trail of whom and when a parcel was created.  Not a bad idea since we are not a recording state...and very little of that info makes into onto the face of conveyance documents simply because the title companies feel it's unnecessary. But as Andy noted; the Golden Rule applies here:  Whomever has the gold, rules.

 

“Owning a great golf course gives you great power."
- 45th. President of the United States


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Dallas Morlan
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December 6, 2018 9:53 am  

The title company example would not fly in Ohio.  Each county has adopted and published minimum description standards that are based on, and usually more restrictive than, Ohio law (Ohio Revised Code) and Ohio rules (Ohio Administrative Code).  Ohio Department of Transportation County Conveyance Links page provides an index of county standards.  OAC 4733-37 was adopted by the license board as minimum practice standards for Professional Surveyors. 

The following is from the Ohio Administrative Code:

4733-37-06 Descriptions.

(A) When a surveyor is called upon to prepare a new description, either to replace an existing description which is inadequate or to create a new piece of property, said description shall include the following items:

(1) Sufficient caption so that the property can be adequately identified.

(2) A relationship between the property in question and clearly defined control station(s).

(3) The basis of the bearings.

(4) A citation to the public record of the appropriate prior deed(s).

(5) The surveyor's name, Ohio registration number and date of writing and/or survey.

(B) A metes and bounds description shall include, in addition to paragraph (A) of this rule:

(1) A description of the boundary monument used as the initial point of the description.

(2) A series of calls for successive lines bounding the parcel, each of which specifies:

(a) The intent in regards to adjoiners or other existing features.

(b) The direction of the line relative to the direction of the basis of bearing.

(c) The length of the line.

(d) A description of the boundary monument (or reference monument) and whether found or set to identify the end of the particular line.

(e) All curved lines shall indicate the radius, central angle, curve length, chord bearing, chord length and direction of the curve.

(f) The reported boundary data shall meet the closure requirements of paragraph (C) of rule 4733-37-04 of the Administrative Code.

(3) The area of the parcel.

(C) Descriptions other than metes and bounds descriptions may be a reference to a recorded survey plat or a parcel on a recorded survey plat and shall include sufficient and adequate legal and technical wording so that the property can be definitely located and defined.

(D) A statement shall appear indicating that either: the description was made in accordance with a recent survey and the date thereof, or the description was made based on a previous survey, of a certain date, and date of description, or the description was not based on a survey.

(E) When the surveyor knows a new description is to be used for a fee transfer, the surveyor shall base the description on a current or updated survey of the property.

R.C. 119.032 review dates: 05/09/2014 and 05/09/2019
Promulgated Under: 119.03
Statutory Authority: 4733.07
Rule Amplifies: 4733.20
Prior Effective Dates: 05/01/1980, 11/01/2003

Dallas P. Morlan, P.S. (Retired), OH, WV


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Gene Kooper
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December 6, 2018 10:25 am  

Andy,

Being a cynical old phart, I would have probably responded to the title company with, "Well, why didn't you say you required a metes description instead of a metes and bounds description?" 


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aliquot
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December 6, 2018 10:35 am  
Posted by: Andy Nold
Posted by: aliquot

You are the licences surveyor. You should not allow an unlicensed title company employrr tell you how to write you land descriptions. 

That's not the reality in this situation. The revised description is adequate to identify the parcel on the ground and makes the title company happy, which makes the multi-million dollar client happy, which makes the boss happy. If they were asking me to do something that I knew to be wrong, I would certainly stand my ground.

 

Your compromise description is adequate (although I think a bearings statement should be added). I was referring to the title company example, which was not. You are right though, no reason to be stubborn when a compromise can be worked out that makes all parties happy.

This post was modified 1 week ago 2 times by aliquot

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Andy Nold
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December 6, 2018 10:47 am  

I just got feedback from the title company. One of the big sticklers is that they don't know what the state plane coordinate is and they don't know how to verify that it is correct. I suppose their reasoning is that if the POB coordinate was wrong, would it put a cloud on the title?

She also indicated that the example they sent me is the standard format for legal descriptions in Oklahoma. Hmmmmm..... Oklahoma has much loser minimum standards it seems.

Also, keep in mind that I did prepare a plat of the survey that was much more robust with all kinds of information that I did not include in the decsription. I don't know if my plat will be filed with the description or not, but it is page 1 of 2 and the legal is page 2.

“A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man!” - Jebediah Springfield


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