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Might have to take the plunge and get into GPS Station Surveys  

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squowse
(@squowse)
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Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 952
November 29, 2018 10:18 pm  
Posted by: True Corner

The following is a better article:  https://libcom.org/news/article.php/land-ownership-right-roam-uk-10032006

My inlaws owned their building but paid a 99 year leasehold on the land which according to them is quite common.  Additionally you don't have a land registry. 

It's quite a bit different in the UK and the rest of the world for that matter.

I think that website has a bit of an agenda to say the least!

This is the website for England and Wales land registry. I can assure you it very much exists.

https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/land-registry

leasehold properties do exist but they are rapidly falling out of favour. there are government acts to enable occupiers to buy them out.

Main difference is we don't have a "point of beginning" - the land was carved up long before that was thought of. So boundaries are very unlikely to be able to be re-established.

There are lots of different types of surveyors, but chartered surveyors and solicitors (lawyers) deal with property transactions. Our type of measuring equipment is not much use to them, although the square metreage of a building will count for a lot in terms of it's value. They just measure it up with a tape or disto.

In general the boundary is where the fence or wall is. If you want to argue otherwise you're going to need some good evidence and lots of money for lawyers. Funnily enough it is rarely a problem. 

 

This post was modified 2 weeks ago 3 times by squowse

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chris mills
(@chris-mills)
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November 30, 2018 2:51 am  
Posted by: squowse

Our type of measuring equipment is not much use to them, although the square metreage of a building will count for a lot in terms of it's value. They just measure it up with a tape or disto.

In general the boundary is where the fence or wall is. If you want to argue otherwise you're going to need some good evidence and lots of money for lawyers. Funnily enough it is rarely a problem. 

 

Tapes and Distos are OK for internal work (sometimes). There are different types of Chartered Surveyor, qualified in one or more of the 6 sectors within land and buildings, so some of us use total stations and GPS as our main tools.

Whilst the General Boundaries rule serves the UK well (hard to argue when the boundary is "somewhere within the wall") when arguments do kick off they do so with a vengeance. I have one dispute, started in 2015, which still hasn't quite reached finality and has already produced survey fees of £40,000. What the lawyers have pocketed I hate to imagine. All over 50 yards of common boundary - a very well-off area in Surrey, UK.


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ChrisA
(@chrisa)
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November 30, 2018 1:50 pm  

Sorry for the delay all, it's Friday night and I finally got round to responding, it's been a long week, though I actually managed almost a whole day off today, that was nice!

Sireath - Thank you for that, really kind. I think it will be frustrating at first and there's no doubt a lot of time will be used up getting things set up. I've probably said in a previous post, but I'm only doing this because the local surveyors don't really like small jobs and understandably have to price them similar to a medium/large sized job. It's often an issue that I want the information for greater accuracy and more useful drawings, but the client isn't prepared to pay for it. It'll no doubt take some time, but hopefully time I can gradually recover over...ummm, time.

Squowse - Funnily enough the unit I saw, that I thought would get me under trees (using a GPS system) has been confirmed as not working as expected - and by all people, the seller! Quite honest of them and glad I've got your comments to confirm this.

Thank you very much for clarifying my confusion, I'm so sorry to you and everyone for writing these seemingly silly questions, but over on this side of the pond there's very little information. Understandable of course, as I have knowledge about how I perform my work, and I'm unlikely to give that up for free, for fear of creating more competition!

About the idea of a £2k manual total station, I'll a little restricted on have a second pair of hands at conveniently short notice, so for times sake, a Robotic Total Station would be best...just not the best for my wallet. On the bright side, at least any borrowing interest will be tax deductible...but it's still my actual money that's being spent! Thanks again for your comments, it truly is invaluable.

Chris Mills - I think you're right re the Robotic unit, despite the cost increase. That also sounds superb that I can connect it with internal measures. You're right again re local datum sufficing, I'm not carrying out any large scale builds, normally just a house, or two at most, and mainly extensions to existing buildings.

Quite right about buying off the internet, I'm looking for local outlets first, but nationwide for general cost research. Oddly one has admitted that they can supply me with a Robotic Total station, however it's very old and parts would be difficult to attain if there were problems...quite honest for a body that wishes to sell something. That's a really useful headsup about Trimble, I'm sure that's a real disappointment for many. Thank you again!

Norman Oklahoma - Really appreciate you weighing in, I was under the (wrong) impression that the base need only to be in clear line of sight to sats, and then knows the position of the rover. From the outset I've respected and appreciated that this isn't an area you can casually drop by, and everyone here has indirectly conveyed that, quite rightly.

Thank you Norman, really invaluable info.

True Corner - Quite right, it is a much smaller area, however we have Ordnance Survey to thank for preliminary plans of every corner of the UK (as it's quite small, it was relatively easy). These are generally used to illustrate the extents of the ownership boundary, I would happily upload one as a sample if anyone is curious.

Chris Mills - Following on from your later comments, I've been involved in land purchases and despite the accuracy available to us, we still refer to the old Land Registry plans as 'gospel'. Clients assume that precise drawings are required, but often the revision of an old 1:1250 scale plan is sufficient and actually the only acceptable format. It's a funny country isn't it.

You're also right about the UK having a greater quantity of property owners, I think Germany is the highest in Europe, that's partly due to property not being used so much as an income source. That does need to be confirmed though, as I'm only going on memory.

Chris Mills - Sorry, just noticed you're in this country, hello! Couldn't agree with you more, I've dealt with party issues and it's just a specialist area. In principle, say in a terrace, you own half of the wall. That's simple enough isn't it, but like you say, in situations where the boundary is more vague, clients and owners will only end up lining the pockets of the legal beagles to fight out disputes. It's a strange world...or rather country.


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Dave Karoly
(@dave-karoly)
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Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 9785
November 30, 2018 3:45 pm  

The base should be as open as possible. Base and rover need common satellites so if the rover is marginal it may work if the base has a lot more satellites available.

U.S. boundary law is like U.K. boundary law with an inadequate scientific element thrown in to make it interesting. Much of the U.S. is arid and larger tracts so it doesn't lend itself as well to walls and hedges.

While we are on the subject of hard work, I just wanted to tell you that I am a man who likes hard work.
I was born working and I worked my way up by hard work.
I ain't ever got no where, but I got there by hard work.
Work of the hardest kind.
I been down and I been out
I been disgusted I been busted and I couldn't be trusted.
-Talking Hard Work, Woody Guthrie


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Artie Kay
(@artie-kay)
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Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 243
November 30, 2018 4:45 pm  

Have you thought about renting survey kit? Or, short term renting a network GPS receiver and owning a robotic total station? That way you could establish control stations with OSGB36 co ords and ODN heights with GPS as a basis for surveys with the TS. If you just do floating surveys with a TS you can't tie into public sewer heights, title deed plans etc. Don't underestimate the cost of additional software and the time it will take to get familiar with it, the hardware is only half the story.

 

 


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chris mills
(@chris-mills)
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December 1, 2018 6:51 am  

For the sort of surveys a small architect does, most would be on a local datum. As long as you have the height difference between your drainage outfall and the local sewer that generally does. Whilst it is true that floating surveys won't tie in with title deed plans, in this country GPS probably won't either! Far too accurate for a mapping system which originated in the need for the English Army to know how to get at the French and the Scots (sorry, no offence Artie Kay!)

Comment on software is very appropriate: that is where the real learning curve lies.


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Precision Geosystems, Where Precision Meets Value.

Micheal D'Aubyn
(@micheal-daubyn)
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December 4, 2018 3:34 pm  

I'd like to add a few things if I may:

First of all, that GPS that you shared the link for is outrageously expensive for a GPS located in the UK. If you look on Ebay you'll see them pop up every now and again for well under 2000 quid for a Leica 1200 system.

Secondly, that unit is a base and a rover system. You'll only need the rover plus some sort of NTRIP system in the UK. South east England (Kent I assume??) is quite populated, and from my time wandering around Maidstone/Sevenoaks/Otford the mobile phone reception from O2 was amazing. This is critical when using NTRIP. You really only need a base station when you're starting from scratch with nobody to help you find your location. With NTRIP, you're essentially using someone else's base station as a reference point. And these days a lot of them are free.

Thirdly, you sound like someone who is doing a lot of "detail surveys" so you can figure what is actually is there, so you can then design a new structure and knock down the old one. As someone said earlier, you might be better off using a total station for that sort of work. Again, from the time I spent in your neck of the woods, you guys like your "huddled together" terrace houses and hedgerows. Without clear line-of-sight access to the sky, your GPS isn't going to get the job done for you. Not at all.

Doing detail surveys means that you care more about what is there as opposed to where in the world it actually is. If you actually do need to know where in the world it actually is, then you sound like you're not qualified to do that work in the first place. So if you don't actually care where it is, then just get your orientation from the kerb/curb line and align it with Google maps so your shadow diagrams will be right.

This is a shockingly bad way to do things and I personally would never dream of doing it like that. But if you genuinely don't care "where the land is" then go for it. If you think it will matter for some reason, then buy a rover with NTRIP, use it to put in two marks at either end of the street accurate to 10mm or 20mm, then buy an older reflectorless total station (maybe a Leica 1100/1200 robot) and traverse off those two marks. You'll get all of your kit in the UK for around the same price as that GPS from Sealand.

For example, the rover below it would be closer to what you need......but still too expensive:

http://sealandsurvey.co.uk/leica-atx-1200-gps-network-rover/

But if at any point during the project your information needs to submitted to ANY form of government office to be added to the cadastre, then you shouldn't be in here asking for advice on equipment. You should be asking about where to find a qualified surveyor in south-eastern UK. Don't your real estate agents handle cadastral surveying in the UK?

Mick

P.s. Germany has the lowest rate of home ownership anywhere in the European Union. True story! Germany itself is rich. It's people are paupers. Low wages and high taxes will do that.

This post was modified 1 week ago by Micheal D'Aubyn

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Norman Oklahoma
(@norman-oklahoma)
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Posts: 4002
December 4, 2018 3:43 pm  

One more thing...

Even I, on the west coast of the US, know what Sealand is and something of it's history. While I have no personal knowledge of Sealand Survey I don't think I'd be comfortable spending real money buying from a dealer that self-identifies as being Sealandish.  

"Convention is like the shell to the chick, a protection till he is strong enough to break it through." Learned Hand


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squowse
(@squowse)
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Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 952
December 5, 2018 12:44 am  

Sealand survey is a reputable company on the border of North Wales. Nothing to do with the Sealand in the Thames. 


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squowse
(@squowse)
500+ posts Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 952
December 5, 2018 12:49 am  
Posted by: Micheal D'Aubyn

I'd like to add a few things if I may:

First of all, that GPS that you shared the link for is outrageously expensive for a GPS located in the UK. If you look on Ebay you'll see them pop up every now and again for well under 2000 quid for a Leica 1200 system.

Secondly, that unit is a base and a rover system. You'll only need the rover plus some sort of NTRIP system in the UK. South east England (Kent I assume??) is quite populated, and from my time wandering around Maidstone/Sevenoaks/Otford the mobile phone reception from O2 was amazing. This is critical when using NTRIP. You really only need a base station when you're starting from scratch with nobody to help you find your location. With NTRIP, you're essentially using someone else's base station as a reference point. And these days a lot of them are free.

Thirdly, you sound like someone who is doing a lot of "detail surveys" so you can figure what is actually is there, so you can then design a new structure and knock down the old one. As someone said earlier, you might be better off using a total station for that sort of work. Again, from the time I spent in your neck of the woods, you guys like your "huddled together" terrace houses and hedgerows. Without clear line-of-sight access to the sky, your GPS isn't going to get the job done for you. Not at all.

Doing detail surveys means that you care more about what is there as opposed to where in the world it actually is. If you actually do need to know where in the world it actually is, then you sound like you're not qualified to do that work in the first place. So if you don't actually care where it is, then just get your orientation from the kerb/curb line and align it with Google maps so your shadow diagrams will be right.

This is a shockingly bad way to do things and I personally would never dream of doing it like that. But if you genuinely don't care "where the land is" then go for it. If you think it will matter for some reason, then buy a rover with NTRIP, use it to put in two marks at either end of the street accurate to 10mm or 20mm, then buy an older reflectorless total station (maybe a Leica 1100/1200 robot) and traverse off those two marks. You'll get all of your kit in the UK for around the same price as that GPS from Sealand.

For example, the rover below it would be closer to what you need......but still too expensive:

http://sealandsurvey.co.uk/leica-atx-1200-gps-network-rover/

But if at any point during the project your information needs to submitted to ANY form of government office to be added to the cadastre, then you shouldn't be in here asking for advice on equipment. You should be asking about where to find a qualified surveyor in south-eastern UK. Don't your real estate agents handle cadastral surveying in the UK?

Mick

P.s. Germany has the lowest rate of home ownership anywhere in the European Union. True story! Germany itself is rich. It's people are paupers. Low wages and high taxes will do that.

No free NRTK in UK as yet. 

No measured "cadastre" either. Certainly not with coordinates. 

 


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Mark O
(@mark-o)
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Posts: 121
December 5, 2018 9:34 pm  

Here's where you should start. I'm sure there is an RTK correction stream you could use. Some are free here in US.

https://london.craigslist.org/eld/6745377913.html?lang=en&cc=us


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True Corner
(@true-corner)
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Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 430
December 5, 2018 10:28 pm  
Posted by: Dave Karoly

The base should be as open as possible. Base and rover need common satellites so if the rover is marginal it may work if the base has a lot more satellites available.

U.S. boundary law is like U.K. boundary law with an inadequate scientific element thrown in to make it interesting. Much of the U.S. is arid and larger tracts so it doesn't lend itself as well to walls and hedges.

Prescriptive rights don't exist in the UK.  Buying land in the UK is totally different than the US.


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chris mills
(@chris-mills)
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Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 377
December 6, 2018 12:59 am  
Posted by: Mark O

Here's where you should start. I'm sure there is an RTK correction stream you could use. Some are free here in US.

https://london.craigslist.org/eld/6745377913.html?lang=en&cc=us

As Squowse has already said there is no free network correction stream in the UK. Access to those provided by Trimble, Leica, etc., is a subscription service at around, I think, £200 a month.


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squowse
(@squowse)
500+ posts Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 952
December 6, 2018 12:31 pm  
Posted by: Mark O

Here's where you should start. I'm sure there is an RTK correction stream you could use. Some are free here in US.

https://london.craigslist.org/eld/6745377913.html?lang=en&cc=us

What makes you so sure?  😀

I think we have established that the OP doesn't really need a GPS, he needs a total station. But in any case gumtree and craigslist here are full of scams. So that kit might not actually be for sale and certainly hope no one would send them money, or to "parcelforce" which is what i suspect would be requested.

This post was modified 6 days ago by squowse

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