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WA-ID Surveyor
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December 6, 2018 10:00 am  

Norman, Exactly my point!  We have hundreds of section corners already tied and on a state plane coordinate system in multiple counties and states.  It provides a tremendous boost in efficiency in more ways than I can count.

This post was modified 6 days ago by WA-ID Surveyor

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aliquot
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December 6, 2018 10:41 am  
Posted by: Norman Oklahoma
Posted by: oldpacer

98%, Like previously stated, why twist and squish a Boundary Survey and make it difficult to use, just so it fits the rest of the world.

I see it just the opposite. Putting it on a grid bearing basis is going to make it easier to retrace in the future. Putting actual grid coordinates on the corners will further facilitate their recovery. 

Putting lat/long on the corner is just as effective for recovery.


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Richard Imrie
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December 6, 2018 12:05 pm  
Posted by: aliquot

 

Putting lat/long on the corner is just as effective for recovery.

Plus the Datum?


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Loyal
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December 6, 2018 12:14 pm  
Posted by: Richard Imrie
Posted by: aliquot

 

Putting lat/long on the corner is just as effective for recovery.

Plus the Datum?

AND the Realization (epoch etc.).

That SHOULD go without saying. The "origin" of said position (HPGN, HARN, FBN, CBN, CORS, OPUS etc.) should also be included, but aliquot knows all of that, and so SHOULD everyone else.

The geocentric (ECEF) would work just as well.

I have yet to encounter (so far), some numbnuts "modifrickingfying" a Lat/Lon or X/Y/Z coordinate (although I am sure that it has been done).

Loyal  

"Perilous to us all are the devices of an art deeper than we possess ourselves."
Gandalf, The Two Towers


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Norman Oklahoma
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December 6, 2018 12:23 pm  

Metadata is always good to have but a Lat/long or grid coordinate in any flavor of NAD83 should put you within pin finder range. The monument is still king.

One comment against lat/long vs. grid coordinates on a plan. Anybody with a smart phone can navigate to lat/long. Sort of. Lat/long may be more prone to mis-use.  

"Convention is like the shell to the chick, a protection till he is strong enough to break it through." Learned Hand


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Loyal
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December 6, 2018 12:29 pm  
Posted by: Norman Oklahoma

Metadata is always good to have but a Lat/long or grid coordinate in any flavor of NAD83 should put you within pin finder range. The monument is still king.

One comment against lat/long vs. grid coordinates on a plan. Anybody with a smart phone can navigate to lat/long. Sort of. Lat/long may be more prone to mis-use.  

Another GOOD reason for using ECEF X/Y/Z

"Perilous to us all are the devices of an art deeper than we possess ourselves."
Gandalf, The Two Towers


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aliquot
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December 6, 2018 12:57 pm  
Posted by: Norman Oklahoma

Metadata is always good to have but a Lat/long or grid coordinate in any flavor of NAD83 should put you within pin finder range. The monument is still king.

One comment against lat/long vs. grid coordinates on a plan. Anybody with a smart phone can navigate to lat/long. Sort of. Lat/long may be more prone to mis-use.  

Exactly, of course the datum is important, and it  is always good to include the details, but since coordinates do not hold much legal significance (yet) in North America, they do their job by getting you close enough to find the monument. It could also be argued that providing too much information also creates more opportunities for misuse.  


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MightyMoe
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December 6, 2018 1:03 pm  
Posted by: Loyal
Posted by: Richard Imrie
Posted by: aliquot

 

Putting lat/long on the corner is just as effective for recovery.

Plus the Datum?

AND the Realization (epoch etc.).

That SHOULD go without saying. The "origin" of said position (HPGN, HARN, FBN, CBN, CORS, OPUS etc.) should also be included, but aliquot knows all of that, and so SHOULD everyone else.

The geocentric (ECEF) would work just as well.

I have yet to encounter (so far), some numbnuts "modifrickingfying" a Lat/Lon or X/Y/Z coordinate (although I am sure that it has been done).

Loyal  

You missed the calibration thread  😉 


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MightyMoe
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December 6, 2018 1:07 pm  
Posted by: Norman Oklahoma

Metadata is always good to have but a Lat/long or grid coordinate in any flavor of NAD83 should put you within pin finder range. The monument is still king.

One comment against lat/long vs. grid coordinates on a plan. Anybody with a smart phone can navigate to lat/long. Sort of. Lat/long may be more prone to mis-use.  

We have a requirement that each plat have a SPC coordinate, they have allowed me to put Lat, Long instead. I use the Section corner tie just because of what you mention. Let them calculate the other corners if they want to look. It's all for the GIS guys anyway and the Lat, Long works for them. Lat, Long requirements have exploded the last 20 years. 


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linebender
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December 6, 2018 1:19 pm  

 

Been biting my tongue on this for a while but here it goes. Most of the replies to this post boggle the mind.  Of all things one would think would have the most value for being situated correctly on the globe you would think boundaries would be at the top of the list. Surveyors really screwed up not being the first to realize and promote this. Not only is it not promoted, it's discouraged by most. Here we are in 2018 and everything imaginable gets assigned geographic coordinates except boundary surveys. Come on, man! 


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cf.67
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December 6, 2018 2:39 pm  
Posted by: aliquot
Posted by: Jim Frame

Do you use that only to record data, or for stakeout, too?  ("East a thousand of a second!")

It's the same as using state plane. East .02' except it is geodetic east and the .02 doesnt need a scale factor. Although, much to the chagrin of my assistants, I prefer meters in the field.

Would not  .02' in lat/long be an ellipsoid distance? Meaning it would require an elevation scale factor?

I like the idea, just wondering.

 


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Shawn Billings
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December 6, 2018 4:03 pm  
Posted by: roger_LS

How are boundaries resolved when using State Plane or other Geodetic coordinates. Say you wanted to use a bearing-bearing intersection to create a third position between two found monuments. Would you take a calculator out, apply the difference to the local map and rotate record? Are you first resolving with local bearings then rotating later? Least squared? What is the process? 

Even before I was putting everything on a geodetic bearing relation I still would not use the record bearings to do a bearing-bearing intersection between two diagonal points. I would calculate the bearings of the legs based on the calculated hypotenuse of the diagonal, basically scaling the triangle of the diagonal, leg, leg, from the record to my survey (or if better explained, maintaining the interior angle of the diagonal and legs). I still do that now.

Shawn Billings, RPLS
Owner of Pendulum Surveying in East Texas


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True Corner
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December 6, 2018 6:43 pm  

I was doing a survey in a section of land where the DOT surveyor listed state plane for the corner.   Luckily he listed the center-line highway that's how I found out my state plane was 8' off.  I had to do a rotation to get the right point.  Sometimes I use state plane but not often.

This post was modified 6 days ago by True Corner

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MightyMoe
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December 7, 2018 6:17 am  

Resurveying section lines means getting on "true" north. Of course all the locations for sectional surveys can be done in SPC but many calculations have to be done on the bearing basis of the original. If you have to double proportion in a section corner (hopefully not!) that has to be done using true north bearings.

 

I was following an old timer from the mid 30's. He worked as a GLO surveyor and moved to the private sector. His worksheets that had all his calculations were in northings and westings. It took me a bit to figure out that they were latitude and departures. He was putting it all on the curve and everything was true north. I suppose if he could do it in 1930 I can do it today. 


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Norman Oklahoma
(@norman-oklahoma)
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December 7, 2018 7:44 am  

As if on cue an example of the value of putting a job on grid comes to me this morning.  A small (4 lot) subdivision which I did on the grid 2 years ago. I used the Oregon Coordinate Reference System, Portland Zone - a low distortion projection, but that's for another thread. Nobody asked me to. It's just how I roll. 4 out of 5 local surveyors would have done it on 5000/5000.

The engineer/project manager calls me last night. Way frustrated. He needs to submit as-builts on "City Coordinates". Turns out that "City Coordinates" means Oregon SP, North Zone, NAD83(91).  No biggy, since the job is on grid already. If it wasn't, it would be. This morning, I'm a hero.    

P.S.  I'll be value billing this service.

This post was modified 5 days ago by Norman Oklahoma

"Convention is like the shell to the chick, a protection till he is strong enough to break it through." Learned Hand


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