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Inquiry: Survey Records - Records of Survey - Records of Monument  

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JKinAK
(@jkinak)
100+ posts Registered

In a recent Ring, ring posting there was a lot of discussion about recording surveys and states that don't have recording laws. In November of 2013 Shawn BIllings posted a poll looking for info on if your state was PLSS or not and whether or not it was mandatory to record a survey. There seem to be more than a few states without recording laws.

Given that boundary survey records:
- help protect property rights and the fabric of the cadastre;
- increase the likelihood of quiet enjoyment of title;
- reduce the potential for survey error based gaps/overlaps;
- give you and every other surveyor more basis to accept/reject found monumentation;
- protect and perpetuate your survey;
- makes corner cutters think a little longer about which corners to cut since their mistakes/shoddy work will be of record.

I just don't understand how anyone can defend the absence of recording laws.
If your state does NOT have a recording law - Please share:
1. What state you are answering about;
2. Does your state survey society support adding a recording law?
[INDENT]A) If so - have the tried to introduce legislation?
[INDENT]i) If so - what happened with that effort?[/INDENT]
B) If not - what is the rationale behind making boundary info difficult or impossible to obtain?[/INDENT]

If your state DOES have a recording law - Please share:
1. What state you are answering about;
2. Is the survey subject to review?

The goal is to get everyone working from the same set of facts.
I could see the review being onerous. Fortunately, Alaska does NOT require review of any type if the survey being recorded is NOT subdividing land (and no local authority can legally require such a review).I just don't see an upside for the survey community or for the public when surveys occur but aren't publicly available - help me understand.

- John

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 16, 2017 2:23 pm
Jawja
(@jawja)
100+ posts Registered

JKinAK, post: 432942, member: 7219 wrote: In a recent Ring, ring posting there was a lot of discussion about recording surveys and states that don't have recording laws. In November of 2013 Shawn BIllings posted a poll looking for info on if your state was PLSS or not and whether or not it was mandatory to record a survey. There seem to be more than a few states without recording laws.

Given that boundary survey records:
- help protect property rights and the fabric of the cadastre;
- increase the likelihood of quiet enjoyment of title;
- reduce the potential for survey error based gaps/overlaps;
- give you and every other surveyor more basis to accept/reject found monumentation;
- protect and perpetuate your survey;
- makes corner cutters think a little longer about which corners to cut since their mistakes/shoddy work will be of record.

I just don't understand how anyone can defend the absence of recording laws.
If your state does NOT have a recording law - Please share:
1. What state you are answering about;
2. Does your state survey society support adding a recording law?
[INDENT]A) If so - have the tried to introduce legislation?
[INDENT]i) If so - what happened with that effort?[/INDENT]
B) If not - what is the rationale behind making boundary info difficult or impossible to obtain?[/INDENT]

If your state DOES have a recording law - Please share:
1. What state you are answering about;
2. Is the survey subject to review?

The goal is to get everyone working from the same set of facts.
I could see the review being onerous. Fortunately, Alaska does NOT require review of any type if the survey being recorded is NOT subdividing land (and no local authority can legally require such a review).I just don't see an upside for the survey community or for the public when surveys occur but aren't publicly available - help me understand.

It is obvious from your opening comments that you really do not want a discussion on this, But rather want to preach on why mandatory recording should happen. There are a myriad of reasons that it could be a bad idea: Land swaps that did not go through, sales did not finalize, a legitamite difference of opinion as to location, deed issues, theist goes on and on.

Maybe in PLSS states it is easier. But I think you would still have issue with SPC using different datums and some person who does not know any better telling you that you shorted a section line because they typed in two different NAD'83 coordinate systems not realizing they are slightly different.

Here, we put caps on irons. Surveyors know who is wh by the caps and can get copies of maps from each other.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 16, 2017 3:01 pm
holy cow
(@holy-cow)
10,000+ posts Registered

Then there are the halfass recording laws that exclude over half of the surveys made.

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 16, 2017 3:04 pm
Jim in AZ
(@jim-in-az)
2,500+ posts Registered

Jawja, post: 432946, member: 12766 wrote: It is obvious from your opening comments that you really do not want a discussion on this, But rather want to preach on why mandatory recording should happen. There are a myriad of reasons that it could be a bad idea: Land swaps that did not go through, sales did not finalize, a legitamite difference of opinion as to location, deed issues, theist goes on and on.

Maybe in PLSS states it is easier. But I think you would still have issue with SPC using different datums and some person who does not know any better telling you that you shorted a section line because they typed in two different NAD'83 coordinate systems not realizing they are slightly different.

Here, we put caps on irons. Surveyors know who is wh by the caps and can get copies of maps from each other.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

How does the public get those maps? Your State licenses you to protect the public, does it not?

Knowledge is wonderful but understanding is the key.

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 16, 2017 3:09 pm
Jim in AZ
(@jim-in-az)
2,500+ posts Registered

JKinAK, post: 432942, member: 7219 wrote: In a recent Ring, ring posting there was a lot of discussion about recording surveys and states that don't have recording laws. In November of 2013 Shawn BIllings posted a poll looking for info on if your state was PLSS or not and whether or not it was mandatory to record a survey. There seem to be more than a few states without recording laws.

Given that boundary survey records:
- help protect property rights and the fabric of the cadastre;
- increase the likelihood of quiet enjoyment of title;
- reduce the potential for survey error based gaps/overlaps;
- give you and every other surveyor more basis to accept/reject found monumentation;
- protect and perpetuate your survey;
- makes corner cutters think a little longer about which corners to cut since their mistakes/shoddy work will be of record.

I just don't understand how anyone can defend the absence of recording laws.
If your state does NOT have a recording law - Please share:
1. What state you are answering about;
2. Does your state survey society support adding a recording law?
[INDENT]A) If so - have the tried to introduce legislation?
[INDENT]i) If so - what happened with that effort?[/INDENT]
B) If not - what is the rationale behind making boundary info difficult or impossible to obtain?[/INDENT]

If your state DOES have a recording law - Please share:
1. What state you are answering about;
2. Is the survey subject to review?

The goal is to get everyone working from the same set of facts.
I could see the review being onerous. Fortunately, Alaska does NOT require review of any type if the survey being recorded is NOT subdividing land (and no local authority can legally require such a review).I just don't see an upside for the survey community or for the public when surveys occur but aren't publicly available - help me understand.

1. Arizona
2. No review of anything other than Subdivision Plats, Minor Land Divisions, Parcel Splits, etc.

Knowledge is wonderful but understanding is the key.

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 16, 2017 3:12 pm
FrozenNorth
(@frozennorth)
250+ posts Registered

Jawja, post: 432946, member: 12766 wrote: It is obvious from your opening comments that you really do not want a discussion on this, But rather want to preach on why mandatory recording should happen. There are a myriad of reasons that it could be a bad idea: Land swaps that did not go through, sales did not finalize, a legitamite difference of opinion as to location, deed issues, theist goes on and on.

Maybe in PLSS states it is easier. But I think you would still have issue with SPC using different datums and some person who does not know any better telling you that you shorted a section line because they typed in two different NAD'83 coordinate systems not realizing they are slightly different.

Here, we put caps on irons. Surveyors know who is wh by the caps and can get copies of maps from each other.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Your reasoning only supports JK's assertions. Whenever ambiguous things happen, publicly available records help everyone.

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 16, 2017 3:13 pm
Jim in AZ
(@jim-in-az)
2,500+ posts Registered

Jawja, post: 432946, member: 12766 wrote: It is obvious from your opening comments that you really do not want a discussion on this, But rather want to preach on why mandatory recording should happen. There are a myriad of reasons that it could be a bad idea: Land swaps that did not go through, sales did not finalize, a legitamite difference of opinion as to location, deed issues, theist goes on and on.

Maybe in PLSS states it is easier. But I think you would still have issue with SPC using different datums and some person who does not know any better telling you that you shorted a section line because they typed in two different NAD'83 coordinate systems not realizing they are slightly different.

Here, we put caps on irons. Surveyors know who is wh by the caps and can get copies of maps from each other.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

"...a legitamite(sic) difference of opinion as to location..."

This is EXACTLY why things should be recorded!!

Knowledge is wonderful but understanding is the key.

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 16, 2017 3:14 pm
Jawja
(@jawja)
100+ posts Registered

Jim in AZ, post: 432948, member: 249 wrote: How does the public get those maps? Your State licenses you to protect the public, does it not?

Well, let's see: part of my practice is to talk to the adjoiners. So I generally have a feeling of what is going on. Then, I actually have the adjoining info, so if something does not fit, I am aware of it. Then, if I find an issue, I typically send a copy of my map to that adjoiners show the issues that I found. I do not play cover up as you imply; so, no, I really do not lose sleep about the public.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 16, 2017 3:15 pm
Jawja
(@jawja)
100+ posts Registered

Jim in AZ, post: 432953, member: 249 wrote: "...a legitamite(sic) difference of opinion as to location..."

This is EXACTLY why things should be recorded!!

No, that is why attorneys were created. You do not make boundary decisions, courts do. If it is legitimate, then you ahow the gap/gore/ encroachments and both parties have a copy of the map. Your job is done.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 16, 2017 3:22 pm
Dave Karoly
(@dave-karoly)
5,000+ posts Registered

Jawja, post: 432946, member: 12766 wrote: It is obvious from your opening comments that you really do not want a discussion on this, But rather want to preach on why mandatory recording should happen. There are a myriad of reasons that it could be a bad idea: Land swaps that did not go through, sales did not finalize, a legitamite difference of opinion as to location, deed issues, theist goes on and on.

Maybe in PLSS states it is easier. But I think you would still have issue with SPC using different datums and some person who does not know any better telling you that you shorted a section line because they typed in two different NAD'83 coordinate systems not realizing they are slightly different.

Here, we put caps on irons. Surveyors know who is wh by the caps and can get copies of maps from each other.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

What about 75 years from now when everyone is dead and the records are in the landfill?

I thought it my duty to exhibit things as they are, not as they ought to be. -Alexander Hamilton, August 13, 1782

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 16, 2017 3:57 pm
aliquot
(@aliquot)
500+ posts Registered

Jawja, post: 432957, member: 12766 wrote: No, that is why attorneys were created. You do not make boundary decisions, courts do. If it is legitimate, then you ahow the gap/gore/ encroachments and both parties have a copy of the map. Your job is done.

Sent from my SM-G955U using
[QUOTE=Jawja, post: 432954, member: 12766]Well, let's see: part of my practice is to talk to the adjoiners. So I generally have a feeling of what is going on. Then, I actually have the adjoining info, so if something does not fit, I am aware of it. Then, if I find an issue, I typically send a copy of my map to that adjoiners show the issues that I found. I do not play cover up as you imply; so, no, I really do not lose sleep about the public.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

If you are sending copies to the adjoiners then what is the problem recording? One of the benifits of recording is ensuring the adjoiners have access to the survey. This is most important when there is differing opinions. I don't understand what the problem is with land swaps and sales that don't go through. How does that relate to recording surveys?[/QUOTE]

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 16, 2017 3:58 pm
aliquot
(@aliquot)
500+ posts Registered

Jawja, post: 432957, member: 12766 wrote: No, that is why attorneys were created. You do not make boundary decisions, courts do. If it is legitimate, then you ahow the gap/gore/ encroachments and both parties have a copy of the map. Your job is done.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

I make boundary decisions everyday.

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 16, 2017 4:02 pm
FrozenNorth
(@frozennorth)
250+ posts Registered

aliquot, post: 432963, member: 2486 wrote: I make boundary decisions everyday.

Yep. Not sure what they're doing back there in "Jawja" if they're not making boundary decisions and recording the results. Doesn't even sound like a fun hobby. I guess if all the documentation ends up in the client's sock drawer, then no harm done.

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 16, 2017 4:12 pm
Jawja
(@jawja)
100+ posts Registered

Dave, in 75 years your electronic copy will be gone too.

A liquor, you make boundary opinions. Keep thinking you determine the boundary and one day a judge may explain the difference to you.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 16, 2017 4:39 pm
Edward Reading
(@edward-reading)
250+ posts Registered

Our Recorder's Office has all of the maps recorded in our County since the 1800's, in 75 years today's maps will be there too. It's a good system.[

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 16, 2017 4:54 pm
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