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How does everyone handle late changes to ALTA surveys?  

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David Baalman
(@david-baalman)
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February 12, 2018 7:09 pm  

My standard ALTA proposal includes a note: "We are happy to provide a draft copy and address one set of comments. Any changes requested after finalizing the survey, including requests to add entities to the certification, will be considered extra to the contract and billed accordingly. Note: requests that are contrary to the professional judgement of the Professional Land Surveyor in responsible charge cannot be accommodated."

I have a request from a client on an ALTA to add another lender to the certification of a survey completed 10 months ago. They want me to just add the name and not change the date of the survey. I'm reluctant, it seems like it should be a new survey to me, but they act like it should be a nothing change, and should only cost them 1/2 hour of office time. How does everyone else handle this?


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holy cow
(@holy-cow)
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February 12, 2018 7:13 pm  

Let them consider what it would cost to get someone else to satisfy this so-called requirement.


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Mark Flora
(@mark-flora)
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February 13, 2018 4:29 am  

We've been doing quite a bit of ALTA's lately and this seems to be the norm. Although 10 months seem like a while to me. Most requested changes/edit's usually happen within a few weeks after completion of the final draft.

 


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JPH
 JPH
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February 13, 2018 4:38 am  

Is the lawyer and anyone else involved doing this minor change for free?

I have no idea, and we accept this as true, but has anyone ever confirmed that just adding another lender, even if you back-date it, doesn't extend liability to the current date, along with any changes to the site or title made since that date?


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lmbrls
(@lmbrls)
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February 13, 2018 4:42 am  

Any revision must have a revision date. You should not make a misrepresentation for their convenice.  Do they mean 1/2 hour of office time plus $100 per sheet? No problem with that.


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Tommy Young
(@tommy-young)
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February 13, 2018 5:21 am  

It depends on how good of a client this is.


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Cameron Watson PLS
(@cameron-watson-pls)
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February 13, 2018 6:35 am  

Table A item 1 has been deemed a necessary requirement regardless of what the Client wants by our Board in CO.  When requests like this come in I explain any "update" or "re-certification" requires at a minimum a site visit to confirm all the corner monuments are still in place.  I won't back date a survey so the fee for this and the extension of my liability is normally 20%-30% of the original contract value, more if we find corners need replaced. 

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.


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Jered McGrath PLS
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February 13, 2018 8:05 am  

Any time I need to make changes beyond a final delivered product it is going to cost my time. 

 

Portion From ALTA FAQ   https://www.alta.org/news/news.cfm?20160216-FAQs-for-the-New-2016-ALTANSPS-Land-Title-Survey-Standards

As an aside, notwithstanding the innocuous-sounding word “update,” an update is actually a new survey.  The only difference is that the surveyor happens to have surveyed the property previously, so the client may see a reduced fee or timeframe depending on a number of factors (e.g., how long has it been since the initial survey?  And how many changes have affected the property since?). 

 

And honestly the Lawyers know it is illegal and borderline fraud to backdate with an attempt to portray contractual agreements were in place and entities were bound by said documents from a prior date. Backdating in the case of contractually recording a past oral agreement may be allowed if an oral agreement was used to legally bind entities in a legal contract at the time of the backdate. Since property can't generally change hands from an oral agreement though the use of backdating for property is typically a no-no.

“It is the mark of an educated man to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it”. Paraphrased by Others.
Jered McGrath PLS (OR, WA, CA) http://www.linkedin.com/in/jeredmcgrathpls


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Said Lot
(@said-lot)
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February 13, 2018 8:28 am  

I do them and then complain about it to coworkers.  


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Rick Taylor
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February 13, 2018 8:53 am  

Absolutely not going to do it. A lot can change on any given site in 10 months, so that's a new survey, and with an extension of certification to another party it's added liability. My question to the client is "do you tell your doctor, attorney, accountant, mechanic, plumber, etc. what should be done and how much it should cost?" Inform them as to what you have to do and the fee, and get your money up front.


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David Baalman
(@david-baalman)
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February 13, 2018 6:38 pm  

Thanks everyone!

A bit more info came out today: they have a new title commitment showing 1 new encumbrance and also citing my survey from 10 months ago. Fairly easy to convince them now that this is a new survey and won't be free. 


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A Harris
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February 14, 2018 7:29 am  

Texas is not a recording state, recording is purely a client's decision.

Most clients do not record drawings because it costs more.

In recent times I've seen Title companies refer to prior survey drawings and other survey work they have copies of in their Title Commitments and that has not been recorded or appears in any deed description that has been recorded.

I've also seen that appearing in other Surveyor's work as well, sometimes refering to information from their own work and/or from other surveyor's work, also, none of it ever found in public records.

What good is a reference that can not be fact checked?

When something is not of record, does it legally exist?

I really do not believe that the pocket deed theory includes pocket surveys.

IMO, Public notice has not been exerted, given, placed or put in the timeline.

0.02

RPLS NE Texas
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Peter Ehlert
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February 14, 2018 7:47 am  

@a-harris you said "Texas is not a recording state, recording is purely a client's decision." can a Surveyor record his work or is that not permitted?

The Manual Of Instructions ... a History Book


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JPH
 JPH
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February 14, 2018 7:55 am  

"I've also seen that appearing in other Surveyor's work as well, sometimes refering to information from their own work and/or from other surveyor's work, also, none of it ever found in public records."

I totally agree there.  I recently came across this note on a plan:

"The boundary information shown is based entirely on the reference plan noted."

The reference plan is an unrecorded ALTA plan done by this same surveyor.

 

 


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A Harris
(@a-harris)
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February 14, 2018 8:04 am  

Anyone can record most anything at their own expense.

I have found that most clients do not want their surveys to be in the public records.

Most are of the opinion that they have made a big investment in having their land surveyed and if their neighbor wants to know about their common boundary, they can pay for their own survey.

 

RPLS NE Texas
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