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How do you describe our role to landowners?
Posted by Unknown Member on July 13, 2020 at 1:40 amWhen you have a disputed boundary due to conflicting and or vague records, and 2 or more licensed surveyors disagree, here is what I inform the landowners who ask:
Surveyors do not have the authority to declare another survey as “wrong”. Surveyors do not unilaterally invalidate another survey, they do not resolve disputes. Surveyors do not “fued”.
Only landowners have authority to resolve a disputed boundary, either by agreement or in court.
I put notes on my surveys stating that surveyors do not make LEGAL rulings in the event of conflicts. But I do render my opinion on which line is “proper”
I have seen landowners resolve huge problems with very little effort – a total of 4 hours in one case- when they follow these principles. I have seen landowners spend 1000x the cost of the land in court or by paying surveyors and lawyers for years to prove that their surveyor is “right” only to lose all the land in question and mega bucks, plus make life long enemies of their neighbors over a sliver of Land.
What is the role of the professional land surveyor?
dave-karoly replied 3 years, 9 months ago 11 Members · 22 Replies- 22 Replies
All I know is their role is not to “feud” over silly things such as how to spell four-letter words.
My job is to help solve my client’s problem, whatever it may be. I am not an advocate for my client, but I also refuse to make him pay for my ego. I view ??the public? as the person in front of me asking for help and not some faceless entity. If my survey creates more problems than it solved, I have failed.
There was a large subdivision in NH that was a known boundary nightmare. The state was petitioned to resolve the conflicts, but they declined. The real estate was too value to ignore, so attorneys, real estate agents, and lenders continued to push for a solution. All the ??good? surveyors refused to touch it because there was no way to make a profit if you surveyed it by the book. One of the notorious Fence Line surveyors became the sole surveyor who would wade into the mess and make decisions. He helped the public much more than the technically good surveyors.
If I as a surveyor refuse a job because the solution I am comfortable with would require too much work for too little compensation, then the idea that my main motivation is helping the public seems to be at odds with my business practices. I view my duty to the public only in terms of not harming others. Similar to an electrician putting in the correct circuit breakers.
I take boundary feuds very seriously. I have had a great deal of success in private mediation. No two are alike, but hammering home the expense of litigation and the randomness of a judge’s decision seems to help the feuding parties come to an agreement. I love equal area exchanges.
After reading this post a prominent case around here a few years ago that came to mind. At the core of a boundary dispute was the location of an obliterated original PLSS quarter corner.
In a nutshell:
One surveyor said here, another said there. Both locations had their roots in evidence and theory. In a power play one owner on the disputed line contacted not an attorney, but a state legislator. This state legislator raised all sorts of hell about “two surveyors not being able to agree”. He eventually appealed to the state BOR in an effort to find ‘someone’ that would make a definitive decision. The board told him they didn’t get involved in boundary disputes and suggested the BLM. The BLM declined any help citing years of backlog and a general disinterest in private boundary disputes. It became increasingly clear that the only resolution would probably be through the courts.
The legislator had some scathing and maybe even well-founded criticisms to say about land surveyors and the fact that there was no central authority of whom would make a valid “decision” as to the location of a land corner. To avoid expensive litigation the two property owners decided to “split the different” of about 90 feet…something both surveyors had suggested almost two years previous.
Getting any two land surveyors to agree is a challenge. We routinely deal in opinion because there is no absolute single authority to dictate the specific solution. The difference may come down to who made the most diligent search while completing field work. In a simple case that may be the difference between the location of the tip of a bar versus the location of the base of that same bar. In a major case that may be the difference between the position that has been perpetuated versus the location as described by a surveyor/homeowner 150 years earlier who some believe to have done perfect work. Today we see some merely regurgitating what the data collector tells them they shot, thus putting half-inch bends in a 300-foot block line at every lot corner while others report that as a straight line and ignoring the minor wandering of the tops of the monuments.
Expecting two or more land surveyors to come to full agreement is where the problem begins. It is the expectation of perfection. Perfection does not exist. Get over it. Move on.
If I get a call for a land dispute and I sense unreasonable hostility from the caller I usually quote a price so high with full payment up front that it cuts the call pretty short. If they seem reasonable enough to talk to my standard line is “There’s three possible outcomes: You’ll be happy, they’ll be happy, neither of you will be happy; and it seems to be the third one 90% of the time.” That usually makes them think a while.
Both will be unhappy. Prime example was in March. Two city lots side by side. One fellow was happy when the true line hit an air-conditioning unit by about four inches. Other fellow was happy when the other end of the line would allow him to kill out some shrubbery he hated. Thus, both were actually unhappy. Ignorance and simply getting along would have been a superior choice AND much cheaper. Not just because of the survey but because one had to spend money to move his air-conditioning unit and the other built a fence to prove his point but will now have to hang off the roof to attempt to repaint the side of his garage.
Boundary disputes are an interesting beast. On one hand, they’re the easiest way to lose money and get dragged to court. On the other hand, getting the parties involved to come to a compromise is one of the greatest successes a boundary surveyor can hope for.
Boundary issues are usually solved by the surveyor that has done his due diligence of research of available records and locating everything possible on the ground and applying the law of retracement and restoring lost and obliterated monuments and using junior and senior rights to properly set boundary locations. It also helps when the original monuments can be located from existing records that mention those exact objects and witnesses and other attachments to monument locations have been proven to match original records.
This is true for Texas in most instances and can become a total messed up situation in PLSS lands where occupation can trump existing documentation and documentation known by all interested parties.
One of my last surveys was a total mess. Two monuments existed for every property severed from a parent tract. Thru busted measurements to setting monuments in an existing fend line that meandered from tree to tree caused all sorts of problems to the neighbors.
Once all monuments were located and examining everyone’s deed, the original description from the original seller spelled out the junior and senior deeds and from there it was simple to reject the monuments that were not based upon those instructions.
Every survey depends upon the perspective taken in completing the requirements of a total boundary survey.
0.02
Dispute or not, If i find myself in disagreement with another professional surveyor, I seek a meeting of the minds to compare research and evidence. Youthful arrogance caused me to eat crow once or twice. I have found the best approach is a simple request to sit down (just the surveyors) and compare notes. I always add, “Maybe you have some document or evidence that I don’t.” Bringing a box of donuts to the meeting helps too. In those situations that I’ve used that approach, we have always been able to work things out. It works in my area anyway. Your mileage may vary
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose“All I can do is provide my professional opinion. And that opinion will be the same whether I’m working for you or your neighbor”.
That seems to weed out a lot of the problem clients.
I don’t know what my role is so how can I tell a client?
This week’s sudden emergency problem is easy, monuments are in, so I showed the Station Captain where the boundary is located, he needs to move some parked vehicles off of the neighbor’s property. The confusion stems from a fence around the neighbor’s compound, it’s not on the boundary but station personnel mistakenly thought it was. It is several feet onto the neighbor’s property.
I was in court several months ago. The other surveyor did not do “due diligence”. Showed up at court angry. My kids enjoyed it. The other surveyor covered his self with innuendo, bluff, and bluster. His conduct was very un professional, (my opinion).
He did not back down. He sweet talked his client.
In any case, it reminded me that “no matter how sloppy or incomplete of a job a surveyor does, it can be defended, and justified, if your ethics will allow it”.
This thread should be kept going, and going. Lots to derive from it.
N
Nate has a good point about the limits of facts and due diligence once you enter the theater of our judicial system.
Boundary line agreements and adjustments are great tools to use to prevent litigation. I’ve spoken to some surveyors who view BLAs as something akin to defeat. They know the right answer and can’t seem to accept what would likely be the best answer. I felt this way once after expending a great deal of time and energy that culminated in the finding of a 150 year old field stone. When I showed the two farmers where the “true” boundary was, they didn’t like it and just agreed to hold the old fence. I was kinda pissed, but I really shouldn’t have been.
I had a case where the judge had a personal grudge with the client. Nothing could be done to alter his opinion as to who was right or wrong because he already knew the other fellow had to come out on top. Smalltown USA where everyone has known everyone else for years. The other surveyor claimed to have found a freshly set rebar precisely where one needed to be found in order to produce the section breakdown desired and never found certain other survey bars of record that were, in fact, present.
There is also to be considered the difference between what was intended and what was put on a piece of paper and taken to the courthouse to record. In one situation there was an existing tree line/fence line that both parties assumed was down the center line of the property. The intent was to convey each “Half” based on the location of that tree/fence line. The deeds said East Half and West Half. The recipients knew exactly what they were to receive. Many years later a lender called for a survey of one of the “Half” tracts and the trouble began.
If you want an advocate, hire a lawyer. Surveyors advocate for the cadastre. Regarding boundary, a client pays our bills but we work for the boundary.
Sure it is more complicated, but that simplifies our job.
-All thoughts my own, except my typos and when I am wrong.A quality cadastre is the by-product of our work. Our job is to solve our client’s problem in a legal and ethical manner.
In situations where a new subdivision is being reviewed by a planning board, a surveyor is most definitely an advocate for his client.
I’m not sure the correct term is advocate. It should not matter whether or not the subdivision is approved. All that should matter is that the information provided on the plat is accurate and can be explained to those who question any parts of it.
I’ve surveyed under the same circumstances and the judge was simply making things up and throwing the laws out the door just to keep my client from putting his gate at the top of a hill because the pavement made a wiggle while the top of the bank of the borrow ditch was straight.
A few years later the judge retired and my client did what he wanted because the new judges threw the case out and would not hear it.
- Posted by: @holy-cow
It should not matter whether or not the subdivision is approved
I strongly disagree. A PLS is expected to understand the ins and outs of the local governing bodies. Facts and evidence are the foundation of our work but are worthless if they can’t be effectively conveyed.
Advocate (Merriam-Webster) one who pleads the cause of another; one who defends or maintains a cause or proposal
I can??t think of a better word to describe one of the most nuanced roles a surveyor has to his client in regards to communicating the results of a survey to governing bodies (not advocating a boundary location) . Not all surveyors can or should represent their clients in front a Planning Board or Board of Adjustment. I worked for a great surveyor who was incapable of dealing with the often whimsical questions and decisions encountered during the approval process. If a client needed even the most basic of variances, he??d send our draftswoman who knew most of the members of BOA.
In municipalities with complicated UDOs, a PLSs ability to navigate his client through regulations can be as important as the underlying survey.
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