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Confined Spaces HSE?
Posted by jt50 on August 24, 2020 at 7:37 amAnyone with experiences going down manholes? What equipment were you using – oxygen tank? How tight is it with the tank on your back? hazmat suits? How long are you allowed down there?
john-putnam replied 3 years, 8 months ago 15 Members · 18 Replies- 18 Replies
First off, it’s not an oxygen tank. It is compressed air. One bottle will last about 30 minutes +/-.
No experience with manholes, just 30 years with the VFD.
Have you tested the air of the space? In other words are you certain that you need compressed air on all the time. I have used companies that maintain their own gear for CSE to support our crew but in all cases so far the spaces had adequate air to breathe. They are usually staffed by retired or active firefighters/EMTs and they add in a level of comfort to working safely in these types of spaces. In our cases, we staged compressed air tanks in the space and all carried the relevant meters and the training to use them. Also included was a comm system to stay in touch with people “topside”. Not work I would like to do every day but it was very interesting to do.
—Dan MacIsaac, PLSI’ve gone down them. As others have said, we used a meter, and only entered if everything was good, O2, H2S, LEL, etc.
If anything was amiss, we didn’t enter. We had a tripod/crank unit setup, along with emergency rope. The oxygen pack was in case of emergency only, to use while getting the F out.
If you don’t already know about what I’ve just mentioned, then you haven’t been trained, and shouldn’t be going in
Check with OSHA. In Oregon you need to be a certified Hazmat person to physically enter Manholes.
MANY PEOPLE HAVE DIED entering these things. MANY MORE PEOPLE HAVE DIED, while going in to help the first person.
Please be safe out there!
joe
This is something that is simply not done in any areas we work in. The only ones that do are the municipalities themselves and when they do it’s quite a sight.
Yes, like these three in Florida in 2017.
And these three in 1988.
In 1982 I was a field engineer on a wastewater treatment plant in Chattanooga. There was a 60 inch concrete pipe inverted siphon between two lagoons to be used for overflow storage. An operating engineer was charged with keeping the siphon pumped out. Instead of getting electricians to run power down the pipe for an electric pump he just put a small gasoline powered pump in. He went in after lunch one day to check the fuel level and didn’t come out. Three pipefitters went in to get him out. They all passed out. Luckily the pipefitters were able to be revived but the operator didn’t make it. I went into several tanks and basins but ONLY after oxygen and gas levels had been checked AND I carried a monitor with me at all times.
Andy
- Posted by: @jph
If you don’t already know about what I’ve just mentioned, then you haven’t been trained, and shouldn’t be going in
This type of response is really not contributing to the discussion. Who said that I will be going in? I am asking for what equipment and procedures are used by other people with such experiences. If we need EMT, ambulance on standby, rappelling equipment then we will look into people with such expertise.
Your answer is akin to the typical chicken-egg-which-comes-first scenario.
TEST, PURGE & VENTALATE was the mantra I was taught when I worked for a firm that did the civil engineering for the local Baby Bell. Better yet just stay out.
While I am, HAZWOPER trained I avoid getting in a hole like the plague. You need a lot of special equipment and multiple trained personnel. At a minimum you need a sniffer to test the confined space for breathable air as well as the nasty stuff that will kill you. Then you need a venting system to keep the air moving or a self contained breathing apparatus if the air is too bad. Finally you need to wear a harness and recovery rope connected to a tripod / pulley system above ground. As for people, you need at least on to stay above ground to man the recovery system when you pass out. A third person is recommended for when the SH****T really hits the fan.
My recommendation is stay out. Scan it if you can. Have the utility owner work with you on access if you absolutely need to get in. But if you are asking these questions, then you are not qualified to enter a confined space.
Remember, life is to short to die in a manhole. Also, you can have the same problem in a deep trench.
We use a manhole tripod and two separate winches. The entrant wears hip waders, harness, climbing helmet, and gloves. We test the air at different levels with a hose and pump, and then the entrant wears the air monitor. All of this is documented in a form. The air test, tripod set up, dressing up, and paperwork typically takes at least an hour.
We minimize the time that the entrant works in the manhole.
If we have bad air, we don’t use air tanks, fans, or such. We just don’t do the work.
Also, if there is any way to do the work from the surface, without an entry, we do that. We can use a camera on a stick, for example, instead of entering.
Needless to say, it’s a dirty job.
I only did that once, no supplied air but O2 and explosive gas meters, harness and a tripod, two guys topside, one to crank me in and out the other to watch traffic. It was uneventful, but I can’t say it was fun. I don’t think I’ll volunteer to do it again. My HAZWOPER training is long out of date anyway.
Your description is that of the “Permitted confined space entry” process. Its done all the time, and yes its a dirty job.
For the original poster: If you need to climb into, crawl into, be lowered into, be hoisted up into any type of opening that you cannot naturally walk upright and normally, its a confined space. All the other stuff with explosive gasses, lack of O2, toxic fumes,engulfment hazards, electrocution hazards, etc up the ante to permittable confined spaces. The best thing is to stake a timeslot and get trained or even hire trained and licensed consultants to walk you through the process and determine if its worth the effort to get that deeply involved. Is this a one off or do you plan on making it a normal daily operation.
I’ve got way more training that I’ve used and been fortunate enough to never use. No one needs to die doing any job, especially if you’re not actively trying to save someone else’s life.
Stay safe out there and as survey people, always watch out for traffic!
Usually if you see roaches scurrying around near the bottom you’re good to go. If you’re a worry-wart, just drop a mouse or a frog or something down there before jumping in.
In all fairness, the rest of my post provided information of the first-hand variety that you asked for.
This part was needed, in my opinion, in case you were thinking of entering a confined space without training, which is what it seemed like to me.
Take it how you will, though
Safety rules can be onerous, silly, over the top pointless, but one I follow is never enter a manhole. I will not do it, no one in the company is allowed to do it. There is no compelling reason for a surveyor that works for me to enter one.
Three more victims of bad decisions.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/3-sewer-workers-die-after-becoming-trapped-in-indiana-manhole
Going down manholes and drinking beer on the drive back to the office were common when I started twenty years ago and are now shunned. Some number of lives saved I am sure.
The thing to take away from most of these is number of fatalities at each event. It seems to get the original guy in the hole and then at least one other that went in just as unprepared as the first expecting different results.
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