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Wal1170
(@wal1170)
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June 16, 2017 10:57 am  

Mark Flora, post: 432904, member: 12401 wrote: The HP 33s, and the HP35s are both acceptable to use for the NCEES exams.

More power to you if you can pass the FS Exam using a TI-30x calculator. I on the other hand need all the help I can get, and if it's allowed, then why not? I haven't had to use a single one of any of these "basic principles" in 18 years as being land surveyor, so every little bit helps me. I didn't have the benefit that most do to take the FS exam fresh out of college, and am in the process of re-learning all the things I used to know.

In 18 years you haven't applied the basic principles of geometry or trigonometry?


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Loyal
(@loyal)
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June 16, 2017 11:09 am  

I have no clue (again). I took the "fundamentals" Exam in April of 1978, and I'm pretty sure that I had an HP-45 at the time (the HP-41 didn't come out until 1979 I believe). HOWEVER, I'm pretty sure that the test has changed in the last 39 years.

Loyal

"Perilous to us all are the devices of an art deeper than we possess ourselves."
Gandalf, The Two Towers


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Mark Flora
(@mark-flora)
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June 16, 2017 11:11 am  

Wal1170, post: 432907, member: 10610 wrote: In 18 years you haven't applied the basic principles of geometry or trigonometry?

Yes, but Rarely. And even then I would always have some type of data collector or CAD to verify my calculations. The older I get, the less I do things the long and slow way and use the technology to my advantage.

Do you use a TI30x calculator in your daily practice?


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bruces
(@bruces)
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June 16, 2017 11:51 am  

Cool, good luck. I used a ti-36x pro for the exam and use it to check my work in the office often. there were a couple of questions about basic areas but no biggie if you know the areas for basic shapes i.e. circle, rectangle, trapezoid shouldn't be a problem. know how to do triangles really well, grades, optimizing distance for things like shortest route for a utility line, truncated cone volumes, etc. If you can find someone who kept their course work from school to use as a study guide that would be good, and get the practice exam from the ncees website.


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A Harris
(@a-harris)
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June 16, 2017 12:57 pm  

Use of calculators was limited to a scientific calculator with rectangular to polar and no more than two values in memory.
Knowledge of the law of sines and your way around solving curves covered a lot of the math needed and the rectangular to polar filled in most of the rest.
Having a background with DMD sheets was the icing on the cake.
Using a COGO program or a programed HP is all and good, I really hope that any candidate is able to sit down and do everything long handed if necessary.
Without that knowledge, one can never really understand concepts that can really make you a better surveyor.
0.02

RPLS NE Texas
d[-_-]b


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Wal1170
(@wal1170)
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June 16, 2017 4:37 pm  

Mark Flora, post: 432910, member: 12401 wrote: Yes, but Rarely. And even then I would always have some type of data collector or CAD to verify my calculations. The older I get, the less I do things the long and slow way and use the technology to my advantage.

Do you use a TI30x calculator in your daily practice?

Yes, it is nicely in my right inside pocket of my vest. And yes I have the up to date technology as well. It is the only way to remain competitive. But, knowing how to use a scientific calculator to proof a plan set or old plat, is a lot quicker than using CAD or data collector.


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Mark Flora
(@mark-flora)
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June 19, 2017 3:06 pm  

leegreen, post: 432835, member: 2332 wrote: Mark,

I programmed several HP41, HP33, and HP35 with EasyCogo, Dzign and other online programs. But I used Ted Madson's programmed HP35S in the exam. It is very powerful and works like a data collector as it can store 200 cogo points. But it can be challenging to learn. Ted still teaches a great class that will certainly get you well prepared for the exam.

You are only a few hours from me. Feel free to contact me.

How is EasyCogo different from Ted Madson's programs? Are they similar as far as how the programs are laid out with searchable menu's?


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leegreen
(@leegreen)
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June 19, 2017 3:25 pm  

Mark Flora, post: 433260, member: 12401 wrote: How is EasyCogo different from Ted Madson's programs? Are they similar as far as how the programs are laid out with searchable menu's?

No not even close. Ted's programs are very powerful, and complex. Ted has a single program for all triangle functions, EasyCogo breaks into SAS, ASA, SSS routines. Ted's programs and class are specifically designed to prepare you for the FS and PS exams. It is best if you take the exam within a week or so after attending his course.

~LeeGreen.com
Licensed Surveyor in NY
sUAS Remote Pilot


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Paul in PA
(@paul-in-pa)
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June 20, 2017 2:57 pm  

I think all COGO programs should be banned. I took and passed the FS and PLS without need of using any COGO program. Since I had left over time in the PLS exam, in that I did not finish before the deadline for an early walkout, I checked several problems with the COGO and lo and behold had the same answer as the unplugged way.

The exam is an exam of what you know how to do, not what buttons you know to push, and definitely not how much Ted Madson knows.

Paul in PA


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tfdoubleyou
(@tfdoubleyou)
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June 21, 2017 4:46 am  

I took the FS exam less than a month ago. I used a heavily programmed HP-35s and would not likely have passed without it. I used the Dzign programming book and a few of my own custom programs.

Ignore the many people who've come here not to answer your question, but to tell you that all you really need is an abacus and set of trig tables. The calculator is a tool and you'd be foolish to not maximize its potential. Just like in the real world, the test does not care how you arrive to the correct answer, so long as it is correct and on time. Why put yourself at any disadvantage?

Based on my experience, programs I think are essential are:

Horizontal Curves Solver
Vertical Curves Solver
Triangle Solver
Intersections
Inverses
Traverse
Unit Conversion (this is one I wrote and would be happy to share)

I also stored many equations that the supplied reference book didn't include; various volumes, several in photogrammetry, some geodesy, some of the financial equations.


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Paul in PA
(@paul-in-pa)
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June 21, 2017 8:46 am  

tfdoubleyou, post: 433454, member: 12051 wrote: I took the FS exam less than a month ago. I used a heavily programmed HP-35s and would not likely have passed without it.

IF YOU WOULD NOT HAVE PASSED THE EXAM WITHOUT A PROGRAMMED CALCULATOR, YOU PROBABLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT IT IS THAT YOU DO NOT KNOW.

Paul in PA


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thebionicman
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June 21, 2017 10:11 am  

Paul in PA, post: 433497, member: 236 wrote: IF YOU WOULD NOT HAVE PASSED THE EXAM WITHOUT A PROGRAMMED CALCULATOR, YOU PROBABLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT IT IS THAT YOU DO NOT KNOW.

Paul in PA

I completely disagree. It sounds like he knew exactly where he needed the tool and used it.
My only concern with use of cogo is inability to recognize incorrect results. There is nothing wrong with using it to cut time on repetative tasks.
I passed the FS with my 11c and got an 89. I know guys who took it twice that are are easily better Surveyors than I.

CFedS, PLS ID-OR-WA-UT-NV


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tfdoubleyou
(@tfdoubleyou)
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June 21, 2017 11:41 am  

Paul in PA, post: 433497, member: 236 wrote: IF YOU WOULD NOT HAVE PASSED THE EXAM WITHOUT A PROGRAMMED CALCULATOR, YOU PROBABLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT IT IS THAT YOU DO NOT KNOW.

Paul in PA

Paul,

I'm choosing not to interpret your comment as the personal insult it comes off as, and instead using it to further this discussion and defend my point of view. Perhaps I misspoke when I said that I could not have passed my FS exam without my programmed calculator. What I meant was, had my batteries died moments before taking the test and left me to use a totally manual calculator, I would have likely failed. Had the rules of test never permitted me to program a calculator in the first place, I would have prepared appropriately and persevered until achieving a favorable outcome.

My view is you should make best use of the tools you are allowed to use. As I said before, the test does not care how you arrive at the correct answer, so long as you do so and do so on time. It is still very much a challenging and through exam, as I'm sure anyone who has taken it in the last 12 months will attest. It's only become more difficult now that it's no longer completely multiple choice.

As I'm sure any recent taker would attest, the FS exam has more than enough integrity to thoroughly vet those who use a programmed calculator. If you disagree, I'm grieved because I know that you hold no respect for any SIT or LSIT who's worked hard to earn their title.


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Paul in PA
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June 21, 2017 8:27 pm  

First off, the test should care about how you arrived at the correct answer.

Had you batteries died, you should have had a back up. I took 2 HP 11Cs, and HP 48, which stayed in the box till the end and a sliderule. I am not against you using a programmable, especially if you programmed it yourself. Much, much more against those who try to buy their way in, with purchased technology instead of learned or purchased education. It was my understanding that the plan was to provide a standard basic calculator to all test takers.

Paul in PA


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Dan Patterson
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June 21, 2017 8:40 pm  

Really? I took it in 2011, and I used a pencil and a TI 36x solar with no programs. I didn't think programmable devices were allowed.

I think I have to agree with Paul. There's nothing on there that's so complicated you should need a programmed device. There was no resection question or full Polaris shot problem. Even if there are questions like that, It would only be one or two questions. Just pick C and do the rest of the test.

Daniel J Patterson, PLS, PE


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