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Surveyor shortage redo
Posted by just-a-surveyor on December 4, 2017 at 11:53 amI do not believe the surveyor shortage exists!
However, I do believe that there MIGHT be a shortage of Surveyors who are willing to put up with the terrible commutes, subpar pay and being treated like a unwelcome yet unfortunate necessary evil by a bunch of engineers who are licensed by the same boards that we are.
I also believe that during the 70’s & 80′ far too many surveyors were licensed and it drove down prices tremendously and what many areas are experiencing right now is a reordering of our ranks.
The pay for a long time has been depressed and because of that nobody wants to be a surveyor. I have told many people do not bother with entering this “profession” because of the pay and advancement. I remind them that if they are going for a 4 year degree to stay away from surveying because of the pay & high startup costs. Nobody can do their projects until surveyors give them the info. They need us, we don’t need them.
I know of many men who walked away from this profession for the very reasons I’ve described and they are better off for it.
I can only speak for Georgia and Alabama & I can’t speak for other places but I know entry level wages are still around $12 an hour around here with little or no benefits. That needs to change and I don’t know the answer. It costs a lot of money to perform surveys and until companies are willing to charge more and stop knowingly undercutting everyone else and working for wages then nothing will change.
It is common to see surveyors with ragged out trucks and even more ragged out crew members, just grungy looking “men”. There was a nearby company who used parolees for crew members because they were cheap. Now that always bothered me because surveying is often touted as a profession yet this guy hired these people and sent them to other people property and it always seemed like a opportunity to “case out” someone property to later rob it.
It is odd that it is a profession that I love and hate at the same time and since I don’t play well with others very well it might be the only job for me but I sometimes wish I had started a small bait and tackle shop decades ago. Me: “Would you like some red wigglers to go with that beer?”
So…..why should a young person pursue surveying as a career choice?
Unknown Member replied 6 years, 4 months ago 16 Members · 31 Replies- 31 Replies
You’re right. There is not a shortage of surveyors. There is a shortage of surveyors willing to survey lots for $300.
I do worry about there being enough surveyors 30 years down the road, because the proliferation of single man crews doesn’t allow for much mentoring.
We’ve got a young man working here that’s been here for about a year, after graduating college with surveying classes last year. He had spent his summers working for another surveyor in town. All that other surveyor does is boundary surveys. He doesn’t do topos. He doesn’t do ALTAs. He doesn’t do elevation certificates. He doesn’t do construction layout. So all this young man learned to do was boundary work. However, that’s the hardest part to learn. He knows more about boundary surveying than any other college grad we’ve hired. I wonder where these new licensees are going to learn boundary surveying.
I don’t worry for one second about 30 years down the road and I feel that IF surveying still exists it will be in a better place than it is now. When prices rise, and they must rise a lot, that simple act will bring people into the profession. Pay them and they will come.
Pay in most of the northwest is much better, but talent is very hard to find..
- Posted by: Just A. Surveyor
I also believe that during the 70’s & 80′ far too many surveyors were licensed and it drove down prices tremendously and what many areas are experiencing right now is a reordering of our ranks.
The Rate of new Surveyors in GA in the 80s was about 30 a year. There were about 1,000 active surveyors. I believe you will find that to be about the case today. Although, the State has had a significant population increase. The problem now like it was then is that too many Surveyors are in a race to the bottom with their fee structure. There is always someone willing to do it cheaper. Nothing would help more than better business practices by the entire profession.
I generally agree with that statement and the need for better business practices. Maybe more real world Continuing Ed classes of profit and loss or maybe real world cost of doing business.
I would be interested in those kinds of things but most of what I see are the same old tired worn out subjects.
These are some of the continuing education classes at the Pennsylvania conference next month:
- Managing Overhead and Survey Operational Costs
- Determining the True Cost of a Project
- Economics for Small Business
- Human Resources for Small Business
- Project Management and Liability
- Small Business Marketing
To make matters worse in my area. NY State doesn’t allow any business courses for continuing education credits to Land Surveyors.
These are some of the continuing education classes at the Pennsylvania conference next month:
- Managing Overhead and Survey Operational Costs
- Determining the True Cost of a Project
- Economics for Small Business
- Human Resources for Small Business
- Project Management and Liability
- Small Business Marketing
Those are excellent offering for PDH’s. I usually attend the Alabama conferences simply because they are far better than the ones the Georgia society puts on. The two can’t even compare.
I would actually seriously like those offerings.
- Posted by: leegreen
To make matters worse in my area. NY State doesn’t allow any business courses for continuing education credits to Land Surveyors.
See that is the bullshit that does more harm than good. For years the Georgia society had the same old tired and wore out crap from the same old tired and wore old speakers. Oh you could count on everybody attending a 4 hour MTS class and falling asleep and waking up with drool running down your shirt. They offered crap for classes and I haven’t attended since I was told I had no business being in Samsog.org because “I had nothing good to contribute” so I let my membership lapse and started going to the Alabama. conferences.
Every business, not just surveyors, but especially surveyors would benefit from business classes and lots of them. I pretty lucky in that I’m married to an woman with accounting degree and lots of business knowledge but even still it is typical for most PDH classes to be survey related.
Well dammit we know how to survey, at least most of us, we don’t need more classes teaching us how to interpret a deed from preacher man Jeff Lucas.
I can??t seem to fnd any help that has any education in land surveying. Plenty of applicants. But I want to hire someone who is interested in working toward a PLS, good pay, opportunity for advancement, and benefits. But these people are hard to find. So from my perspective, I do see a shortage.
Everytime someone on these threads says “and am I said to say I know there are even some registered folks out there making $ amount”, I get to raise my hand and say, “hey, that’s me!”
I could probably make more by doing switching companies over and over again and getting “hired up”, but I value aspects of my current personal life a little more right now. Point is, though, a lot of us wouldn’t have to do the “hire up” thing if some basic principles and self respect were restablished in this field.
The solution to get more people is to pay them more, which stems from charging what we are worth. I’ll add this: if you want to KEEP people in this profession we need to pay more. I’m not asking for yachts. I’m saying let’s make the liability of that stamp worth it. Let’s rid this attitude of self-infliction and rebrainwash ourselves.
As far as the good help is hard to find scenario, I am loosing patience with these people younger than me…and that is a cultural problem in this country that is not necessarily our profession’s fault. Everytime they catch an attitude, I start fantasizing about mandatory military service for high school graduates?
Everytime someone on these threads says “and am I sad to say I know there are even some registered folks out there making $ amount”, I get to raise my hand and say, “hey, that’s me!”
I could probably make more by doing switching companies over and over again and getting “hired up”, but I value aspects of my current personal life a little more right now. Point is, though, a lot of us wouldn’t have to do the “hire up” thing if some basic principles and self respect were restablished in this field.
The solution to get more people is to pay them more, which stems from charging what we are worth. I’ll add this: if you want to KEEP people in this profession we need to pay more. I’m not asking for yachts. I’m saying let’s make the liability of that stamp worth it. Let’s rid this attitude of self-infliction and rebrainwash ourselves.
As far as the good help is hard to find scenario, I am loosing patience with these people younger than me…and that is a cultural problem in this country that is not necessarily our profession’s fault. Everytime they catch an attitude, I start fantasizing about mandatory military service for high school graduates?
- Posted by: BushAxe
I can??t seem to fnd any help that has any education in land surveying. Plenty of applicants. But I want to hire someone who is interested in working toward a PLS, good pay, opportunity for advancement, and benefits. But these people are hard to find. So from my perspective, I do see a shortage.
I don’t think we underpay in this market (around $18/hour to start with no experience or survey education; low $20’s/hour with a degree, crew chief LSITs in their mid to late 20’s with a degree and four -six years experience getting ready to sit for the PLS making $60,000+) and we still can’t find decent employees, especially with a educational background in surveying. I’ve had to hire guys with surveying degrees from Europe, Australia, etc. or “convert’ guys with degrees in environmental science, engineering, etc. just to get staff with post-secondary education.
- Posted by: Just A. Surveyor
Well dammit we know how to survey, at least most of us, we don’t need more classes teaching us how to interpret a deed from preacher man Jeff Lucas.
Unfortunately, there are lots of surveyors that need to hear Jeff.
Oh you could count on everybody attending a 4 hour MTS class and falling asleep and waking up with drool running down your shirt.
I’ve never been to an MTS class that was worth the time. Alabama finally did away with that requirement, and I agree that the good folks in Alabama do a much better job with seminars than their counterparts in Georgia. I’ll be at the North Dakota fall seminar for the next couple of days, looks like a good one with some NGS folks presenting.
Back to the topic – surveying requires a unique person: a combination of scientist, mathematician, philosopher, outdoorsman, curmudgeon, scholar, educator, geologist, negotiator, researcher, etc., willing to work hard and get dirty in Southeastern summers or Northwestern winters, and do what it takes to get the job done right. There are some fine examples of that sort of person frequenting this board.
It’s been said that a good manager is always training his replacement. We as surveyors need to be on the lookout for those promising youngsters that we can develop to replace us. (That’s how I got here.) I’ve been pleasantly surprised by some and greatly disappointed by others.
Education is essential. There’s more than one way to get it, and if I could do it over I would get that college degree as a foundation. But the day I quit learning is the day I hang it up.
- Posted by: James FlemingPosted by: BushAxe
I can??t seem to fnd any help that has any education in land surveying. Plenty of applicants. But I want to hire someone who is interested in working toward a PLS, good pay, opportunity for advancement, and benefits. But these people are hard to find. So from my perspective, I do see a shortage.
I don’t think we underpay in this market (around $18/hour to start with no experience or survey education; low $20’s/hour with a degree, crew chief LSITs in their mid to late 20’s with a degree and four -six years experience getting ready to sit for the PLS making $60,000+) and we still can’t find decent employees, especially with a educational background in surveying. I’ve had to hire guys with surveying degrees from Europe, Australia, etc. or “convert’ guys with degrees in environmental science, engineering, etc. just to get staff with post-secondary education.
That’s right in line with what I am looking to pay.
- Posted by: Just A. Surveyor
Every business, not just surveyors, but especially surveyors would benefit from business classes and lots of them.
I agree with that. I wish I had sought out more training about running a business when I was younger.
“Well dammit we know how to survey, at least most of us, we don’t need more classes teaching us how to interpret a deed from preacher man Jeff Lucas.”
By my observation, most of us think we know how to survey better than we actually do, especially when it comes to boundary. A lot of folks, particularly in states that require CEUs and a good portion of the audience is there only to log the hours and is resentful for the requirement, tend to tune Jeff out because they don’t like his speaking style at all.
That’s unfortunate, because he usually speaks about the portion of boundary surveying that is most neglected within our profession, but which is most important to locate the true location of the boundary and come to the result that is most likely to withstand court scrutiny.
An alarmingly high percentage of surveyors think performing a boundary survey = read the deed + do the math + stake the corners.
The reason that Jeff’s topics are in the category of “tired old subjects” for some is that they are lessons that need to be taught over and over again because so many of our college/university programs and so many of our surveying organizations are training their students and employees that a boundary survey is more or less just a simple form of engineering problem.
Most of us know how to measure, and most of us know how to calculate. Even in the areas of practice where I’m confident that I know well more than the average surveyor, there is so much more for me to learn that I expect the learning will continue even into retirement. For these topics, I often enjoy going to others’ presentations to get a perspective that differs from my own, or because they may have some recent info I haven’t yet come across. I sat in on one such presentation 2 or 3 years ago where a professor from one of the State Colleges was teaching about the use a certain type of evidence. He got it so wrong that I was happy to get on the schedule for the next conference and have a chance to correct most of the misinformation.
Some of the topics you might consider old hat might also be some that contains a good deal of new material for me, and/or for many others.
In spite of the dire predictions of our dwindling profession, there are new people entering it and many of them are eager to learn. What is familiar to me (none of it is old hat) is brand new to many of them. There are also quite a few surveyors like me, who go through nearly half a career and then find that something they thought they knew quite well is far more complex (and interesting) than their previous training led them to believe.
A certain specific presentation may get old although it may have good info and was interesting the first time, or maybe even couple of times you see it when the people lining up speakers for the conference start relying filling in holes in the schedule with the same speaker presenting the same topic year in and year out.
Other than that, I’m glad that aspects of the same areas of practice get talked about year in and year out. If that weren’t the case, then our conferences would be little more than thinly veiled sales demos. Even though there may be some really neat new gizmos on the market to measure, calculate, and map in new and innovative ways, I’d get really bored with presentations like that really quickly.
I agree that sessions related to running a business and on project or employee management should be a significant part of each year’s conference.
Back to the original topic, regarding a supposed surveyor shortage, I don’t believe it. The shortage is in the patience of much of our clientele. We recently went through several years in which most of us were having trouble finding enough work to stay in business, and during which many left the survey profession altogether to find something that provides a steadier income year in and year out.
When I first entered the work force, many companies would keep at least their best and most reliable busy even if it was on non-billable work through slow seasons and shorter recessions. Lay offs were minimal because they were bad for moral and because you might not be able to get some of the employees back that you’d rather not lose.
Increasingly from the mid or late 80s and through the 90s, companies would start laying people off at the start of any slowdown in business, regardless of the foreseeable length of the slowdown and sometimes regardless of the quality of the employee. Nothing billable to send the crew on this week, tell them not to come in. The bigger, multi-firm companies tended to look at field personnel in much the same light as rental equipment. No particular recognition of quality or demonstrated loyalty. As long as the equipment is designed (or the employee trained) to do the same job, any is as good as the next. All too often, employees, particularly field employees are left hanging in this pseudo layoff limbo for several weeks before being fully laid off.
With advances in equipment, it takes fewer to get more done. When and where I started surveying, we were using transits or theodolites and dragging chain (tape). With that equipment, it’s difficult to get anything done with fewer than 3 on the crew. 4 or 5 on a crew was common, depending upon the terrain and task. We’ve advanced so much with the equipment that in many cases, 1 can get as much or more done in a day than 4 or 5 could have with the more analog equipment.
So people fret about the dwindling numbers in the surveying profession. Well golly gee, why would anyone be surprised in the slightest at that.
People also wring their hands over the rising average age of licensed surveyors. 15 years ago, it was something like 50 years old and now it’s about 57. Is that surprising considering the attrition that tends to take mostly the younger, unlicensed to other occupations in slow periods? Is it surprising when we consider that there is virtually no opportunity for on the job training when we field 1-person crews? Or when you consider that the entry level position and the first 3 visible steps in career advancement are essentially eliminated when there is only 1 person on a crew?
When you lose the unlicensed techs, there are fewer in the pipeline being trained. When I think back to my early days of surveying in the early to mid 80s, it seemed like the average age of licensees had to have been pretty close to 50.
I would guess the average age of someone taking up surveying as a career to be about the mid 20s. Depending on the State, you need between 6 and 12 years combined education and/or experience to take the licensing exam. Most have at least a couple of years more time actually working (or combined education & experience) before applying or being approved to take the exam. So assume someone enters surveying at 25, is approved to take the exam at 35, and passes at 36. Is that much different than it would have been 20 or 30 years ago? Probably not.
At the other end (the seasoned surveyors), people are both living longer and working to later in life than they did on average when I entered the workforce. It’s not all that uncommon that some are still not fully retired by the time their in their mid 70s. Many, even after retirement, keep their licenses active “just in case I want to take on an occasional survey”, or simply as a matter of pride in the accomplishment of having attained and worked under their license for several decades. If we were to remove the retired and semi-retired licensees from the numbers, I’d bet the average age would get back pretty close to 50.
I don’t see the diminishing numbers and rising average age being signs of a dying profession, but rather signs of a changing profession. There are areas of practice which will change drastically or mostly fade away (construction, certain types of mapping), and the profession will need to adjust to a new role in those areas. In other areas, we may need to consider how our role should expand. And with the advances in measurement and mapping technology comes the opportunity for those trained to push the buttons or move the joystick to make the gizmo fly, float, measure, or plot, but not trained as to the basic sciences of measuring, mapping, data usage & analysis, or error theory to really screw things up with that new tech.
In much of that, surveyors by and large are on the slow end of incorporating the technology into our work, but we are best suited by training to be the experts in its use and in providing and managing precise and accurate data. We’re at an age where technological advance happens so fast that many of us are dinosaurs relative to the newer tools, but our knowledge of knowing what should be measured, ensuring that high quality data is collected, and ensuring accurate results from the use of the data is still highly relevant. That knowledge will always be of utmost importance, regardless of the advances in technology.
Evan
That was a excellent post.
The only thing I feel like I should correct is that I did not mean to imply that Preacher Man Jeff Lucas is a tired and wore out speaker. I actually like Jeff and have been to quite a few of his seminars. Suprisingly I am one of the few who has challenged him in the seminars. It gets pugilistic at time and quite entertaining when I tell him “your full of it”.
What I was “complaining” about was the way the tendacy is to not even offer CEU’s or PDH’s unless they are strictly about surveying.
Why not offer something on Account Receivable & Payable, OR How to Calculate Your True Costs of Doing Business, OR how to set up a Sinking Fund for equipment replacement, OR How to Determine Profit and Loss. The list could go on and on but instead we have bullshit MTS Classes by the same people year after year. Or we have a NGS Seminar about CORS Stations or…………you get the point.
Steven
In this area I can expect about 1/2 of the surveyors to be dead or retired in 10 years. The other half will be dead or retired in the following 10 years. It will leave myself and a couple others who are now in our 40’s for an area with several dozen surveyors. I will be 62 in 20 years (scary thought) and I will be eyeing retirement.
We do some minor engineering and we are watching the contractors’ fees skyrocket. Sewer is being installed everywhere and they are pushing towards pumps… They buy the E-One in bulk for somewhere between 4-5k. It retails for 7,500 and they sell it for 15k. Now that is business savvy. Do we have anything in our profession with a greater than 100% markup? Stakes? We have clients with experience of underpriced surveys who are shocked when they receive a proposal for a survey at something closer to the right fee. They then find someone who will do “the same” for less. You can get to the destination in a Yugo so why pay for the Rolls? Unfortunately, they don’t see the rust under the Yugo and the liability is really on the cost effective surveyor… And that is even if a mistake comes back to bite them.
What we really need is to understand the value of the services we provide. We need to charge rates to provide quality services. Nothing like underbidding then cutting corners… then recording a survey that does not match the monuments or the plans in the area.
- Posted by: spledeus
In this area I can expect about 1/2 of the surveyors to be dead or retired in 10 years. The other half will be dead or retired in the following 10 years. It will leave myself and a couple others who are now in our 40’s for an area with several dozen surveyors. I will be 62 in 20 years (scary thought) and I will be eyeing retirement.
We do some minor engineering and we are watching the contractors’ fees skyrocket. Sewer is being installed everywhere and they are pushing towards pumps… They buy the E-One in bulk for somewhere between 4-5k. It retails for 7,500 and they sell it for 15k. Now that is business savvy. Do we have anything in our profession with a greater than 100% markup? Stakes? We have clients with experience of underpriced surveys who are shocked when they receive a proposal for a survey at something closer to the right fee. They then find someone who will do “the same” for less. You can get to the destination in a Yugo so why pay for the Rolls? Unfortunately, they don’t see the rust under the Yugo and the liability is really on the cost effective surveyor… And that is even if a mistake comes back to bite them.
What we really need is to understand the value of the services we provide. We need to charge rates to provide quality services. Nothing like underbidding then cutting corners… then recording a survey that does not match the monuments or the plans in the area.
I have no clue what an E-One is but I will tell you that almost every single time I truly try to price it as it really costs I loose. What I am referring to is the hourly rates, IF I truly use the hourly rates to determine a fee to perform a job I can all but guarantee I will be roundly ignored. Hourly rates don’t mean squat and I wish all surveyors would stop the BS with the hourly rate nonsense because they do not use them and never will. Oh they will tell you that their rates are $150 hour but that is bull and when you call them on it they will put a bunch of qualifiers and caveats for their use.
As for the number of surveyors??????it is probably the same thing around here where half are in their mid-70??s or older and still going strong and they are still the low-price leaders offering up cut-rate fee??s. They have been surveying for so long that they have a competitive advantage over most everyone else and they offer up cut-rate prices and the only way you will ever ??beat them? is to go low. That is a fact and for all you people out there saying otherwise you are living a charmed life.
Incidentally I will be 62 in 10 years and I just hope to be able to get there in one piece with my sanity intact. I still would never recommend surveying to anyone, not even my worst enemy (if I had one). I still discourage everyone from pursuing surveying as a career and will continue to do so as long as entry level pay for a cart pusher at Wal-Mart makes more money than an entry level surveying position.
I do not ever see surveyors ever valuing the service they provide & quite the contrary, and if you go to the Samgog.org message board you can read a post lamenting the higher fees because of some mythical shortage.
I wish I could live in a time and place where surveyors had high fees and valued their service, but I do not, and I doubt I will ever see it.
I say a shortage does not exist, but one is desperately needed to bring value to a profession that does not value itself.
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